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all this is really useful stuff, thanks

a problem i have is keeping subs under control... its easy to make a fat sub, but its giving it presence without it being flabby which is the tough stuff...getting a tight, clear tone

is a lot of that down to good compression and then later mastering?

elgato wrote: a problem i have is keeping subs under control... its easy to make a fat sub, but its giving it presence without it being flabby which is the tough stuff...getting a tight, clear tone

This may just be me, but my subs are simple as Two sine waves detuned 1 cent each way a little tube distortion a LP filter and if there's modulation which makes the volume vary considerable then a bit of compression, its not really rocket science, but it works

well i have a similar approach, but on some speakers they sometimes sound wack, which makes me question it

I use this thing a lot very very handy utility:

http://www.analogx.com/contents/download/audio/freq.htm

elgato wrote:all this is really useful stuff, thanks

a problem i have is keeping subs under control... its easy to make a fat sub, but its giving it presence without it being flabby which is the tough stuff...getting a tight, clear tone

is a lot of that down to good compression and then later mastering?

Check out www.dnbwiki.com and then look at the articles on how to make the 808 kick from a sine wave. Seems like the part that gives the bass the punch is the sharp pitch drop to note at the beginning which you can draw in as an envelope. You can check the tutorial here http://www.dnbwiki.com/index.php/808_bass

As the attack section of the sound's generally the most important, this should hopefully get that sub to cut through a bit more.

you could also just use the attack of an 808 sample and put your sub with a long attack underneath

yeh man thanks for that

but aside from the attack, its the tone of the whole sound i want to suss. think i need to experiment with harmonics... any pointers?

i think i need to invest in some good headphones or monitors too, i think thats a lot of the problem. cash tho innit :/ cos i want sennheiser hd25s for djing and general usage, but have heard that their bass response is far from neutral and therefore that theyre a bad choice for producing

elgato wrote:yeh man thanks for that

but aside from the attack, its the tone of the whole sound i want to suss. think i need to experiment with harmonics... any pointers?

i think i need to invest in some good headphones or monitors too, i think thats a lot of the problem. cash tho innit :/ cos i want sennheiser hd25s for djing and general usage, but have heard that their bass response is far from neutral and therefore that theyre a bad choice for producing

If I were you I'd go for monitors and maybe cheaper headphones if the budget stretches. That way you can work on the ideas at night without pissing off the neighbours and then do the mixdown on the monitors. Don't think it's advisable to mix on headphones generally (although I can't quite remember why - ask 8-bit or Threnody, they should know).

With the sub, I don't think it's generally about the harmonics as you want to keep this out of the equation, but use a higher bass sound or pad above the kick's frequency to bring out the melody. Too many harmonics clashing in the lower frequencies will cause a lot of phase cancellation and end up sounding quieter.

hmm ill look into monitors... big expenditure tho, and i do really want the hd25s for djing

as for the cluttering, while thats obv true in most circumstances ive been making some tunes where there is only clean sub, without the other layers (except maybe higher, clean, sine sounds)... so maybe those issues about harmonic cluttering dont apply in those circumstances, i dunno

^^^

you don't want to mix in headphones cos they don't have a flat frequency response and so give a 'biased' representation of your mix. plus they over accentuate stereo width and reverb.
that said, i've heard some pretty well mixed stuff done on phones, so go figure....

elgato wrote:hmm ill look into monitors... big expenditure tho, and i do really want the hd25s for djing

as for the cluttering, while thats obv true in most circumstances ive been making some tunes where there is only clean sub, without the other layers (except maybe higher, clean, sine sounds)... so maybe those issues about harmonic cluttering dont apply in those circumstances, i dunno

Ah, that's because the sine is essentially just a fundamental note with no upper harmonics, it's only when you move to more complex waveforms that things start going wrong and getting muddy.

I think you can buy samson resolv80 active monitors for under £200 and they go down pretty low too. Might be worth audtioning them at your local music store and seeing what you think.

I route everything thats not my sub to a bus with a HP filter on it so that nothing, i repeat, nothing invades my bass frequencies,

forensix (mcr) wrote:I route everything thats not my sub to a bus with a HP filter on it so that nothing, i repeat, nothing invades my bass frequencies,

Wondering why i never thought of trying this before!

DoctorKinetic wrote:

forensix (mcr) wrote:I route everything thats not my sub to a bus with a HP filter on it so that nothing, i repeat, nothing invades my bass frequencies,

Wondering why i never thought of trying this before!

You and me both. Feeling very "doh" about that one.

Shonky wrote:

DoctorKinetic wrote:

forensix (mcr) wrote:I route everything thats not my sub to a bus with a HP filter on it so that nothing, i repeat, nothing invades my bass frequencies,

Wondering why i never thought of trying this before!

You and me both. Feeling very "doh" about that one.

simple yet incredibly effective

forensix (mcr) wrote:my subs are simple as Two sine waves detuned 1 cent each way a little tube distortion a LP filter

why do you need a filter if you're using sines? is that just to make sure the distortion doesn't add anything too high?

colm wrote:

forensix (mcr) wrote:my subs are simple as Two sine waves detuned 1 cent each way a little tube distortion a LP filter

why do you need a filter if you're using sines? is that just to make sure the distortion doesn't add anything too high?

well it may just be me but some vsti's don't produce the cleanest sine wave, ive checked em out in soundforge so a filter is just to make sure there are no other frequencies

forensix (mcr) wrote:

colm wrote:

forensix (mcr) wrote:my subs are simple as Two sine waves detuned 1 cent each way a little tube distortion a LP filter

why do you need a filter if you're using sines? is that just to make sure the distortion doesn't add anything too high?

well it may just be me but some vsti's don't produce the cleanest sine wave, ive checked em out in soundforge so a filter is just to make sure there are no other frequencies

cool ta, just checking.

forensix (mcr) wrote:

Shonky wrote:

DoctorKinetic wrote:

forensix (mcr) wrote:I route everything thats not my sub to a bus with a HP filter on it so that nothing, i repeat, nothing invades my bass frequencies,

Wondering why i never thought of trying this before!

You and me both. Feeling very "doh" about that one.

simple yet incredibly effective

OOI, what sort of filter / settings do you use? Or does it vary from track to track?

colm wrote: cool ta, just checking.

yeah ive learnt not to take everything at face value, have a good frequency analyser handy, being able to see what's coming out of your synths is very helpful, then you can make room for your kicks and make your bass sound fat as hell