london march 10th january

[pk-]

What do you mean?

Riot police attacking a group of teenagers (literally a bunch of 14 year olds) who were SAT FUCKING DOWN ON THE FLOOR.

Fucking scum pigs.

I mean were they stopping you from getting to the same side of the street as the embassy? Are those the embassy gates in the background?

There's been a day-and-night protest going on legally over the road from the Chinese embassy highlighting the mistreatment of the Tibetan people (whom, strangely enough, everyone on here seems to have forgotten since the olympics ended) for 20 years and nobody there's had the shit kicked out of them by hired thugs in uniform who are just aching for an excuse to lay into someone. They may be scum pigs, but anyone who gives them a legitimate excuse to get the batons out is a prat.

Probably should say that if they weren't, and those aren't, then obviously that's a fucking disgrace. But at least know the fucking law before you charge down to kensington and get your head kicked in by the SS

[ELLFIVEDEE]

What a great idea, I mean, the UN calling for a ceasefire didn't work, so a bunch of people walking in another country should do it for sure.

[tr0tsky]

I mean were they stopping you from getting to the same side of the street as the embassy? Are those the embassy gates in the background?

Nah there were were on the opposite side of the road. The layout of the street was that the road narrowed into a spout at the gates where people were gathering, so the road was long and thin. If you pushed people there was nowhere to go because of how solid the fencing was.

I think that the cops had planned this all along. It was too much of an obvious mistake to make.

They may be scum pigs, but anyone who gives them a legitimate excuse to get the batons out is a prat.

I guess it kind of echos some of what has been said above about the point of protesting. People are sick of walking from A to B, chanting a few slogans. Apartheid wasn't stopped by people demonstrating. It was stopped by boycotts, blockades and confrontations of South African events and institutions. All things that are illegal and arguebly, violent.

Okay of course there are going to be people with genuine cultural reasons for wanting to protest against it.

Yeh, and these people are exceptions to what you're saying innit. Man the whole demonstration was 75% young asian lads. The rest was 10% young white people, some student-types but most looking like regular folk, about 10% old white men and women in groups such as "Basingstoke Church For Peace" (big up!) and "Eastborne Knitting Circle", 10% old asian women in headscarves, 10% families with little kids and about 10% Communist and Anarchist groups.

Fuck maths.

The point I'm trying to make was that a) the majority of the folk on the demo were there for what I think you'd describe as "cultural" reasons and b) all sorts of different people were there! I even helped a vicar in his vicar uniform shift some barriers!

[a of dkr]

i know it's just another online petition, but at least this one has already gathered 389,330 signatures, so...
here is the link:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_p ... _tf_sign=1


here's the blabla:

Dear friends,

As we watch the Gaza bloodshed with horror, appalled at how the crisis is spiralling further out of control, one thing is clear −− this violence will only lead to further civilian suffering and an escalation of the conflict.

There must be another way. Over 370 are dead and hundreds more injured −− rockets are striking Ashdod deep inside Israel for the very first time, and the sides are mobilising for invasion. A global response has begun, but it'll take more than words −− the immediate violence won't end, nor will wider peace be secured, without firm action from the international community.

Today, we're launching an emergency campaign which will be delivered to the UN Security Council and key world powers, urging them to act to ensure an immediate ceasefire, address the growing humanitarian crisis, and take steps to build real and lasting peace.1 Follow this link now to sign the emergency petition and send it to everyone you know:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_p ... _tf_sign=1

After eight or more years of ineffective US and global diplomacy −− and now Gaza's bloodiest day in recent memory −− we must issue a global outcry demanding that world leaders do more than make statements if they're to bring peace to this region. The UN, the European Union, the Arab League and the USA should now act together to ensure a ceasefire – which includes an end to rocket attacks into Israel and opening the checkpoints for fuel, food, medicine and other humanitarian aid deliveries.

With a new US President taking office in less than a month, a real opportunity exists to breathe new life into peace efforts. These latest hostilities require not only an immediate ceasefire but a commitment from Obama and other world leaders that resolution of the Israeli−Palestinian conflict is at the very top of their agendas. As the whole world is impacted by this ongoing conflict − we should demand nothing less.

In 2006 we mobilised for a ceasefire in Lebanon. For years we've worked to encourage a just and lasting peace, taking out billboards and ads across Israel and Palestine. Now as we head into 2009, we need to come together again to demand a peaceful and lasting resolution, instead of a further escalation of violence. Follow this link to put your name forward for peace:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_p ... _tf_sign=1

All sides to the conflict will continue to act as they have in the past if they believe that the world will stand by and allow them to do so. 2009 is a year that things can be different. As we face this crisis, and the possibilities of a new year, it's time for us to demand a ceasefire and work together to finally put an end to this cycle of violence.

With hope and determination,

Brett, Ricken, Alice, Ben, Pascal, Paul, Graziela, Paula, Luis, Iain and the whole Avaaz team

[doomtube]

Im not getting into the whole stupid arguments about is it worth marching/posh fucks/starbucks/blah blah

All i know is that if the sight of our march in london this weekend gives one palestinian child hope or the idea that in some country practically on a different planet from Gazza people are angry about this situation ....its a start.
Oh and "fuck the law" but there were marxh stewards telling us to keep moving forwards when the only forwards was into the barriers/masked pigs!!

[magma]

All i know is that if the sight of our march in london this weekend gives one palestinian child hope or the idea that in some country practically on a different planet from Gazza people are angry about this situation ....its a start.

This. The visible symbol is as big a thing as anything. It's important that people know that even if our government doesn't necessarily always take heed, our people are compassionate and empathetic towards fellow human beings. At the very least, this can give a bit of hope to people in a difficult time; at best it can reduce the desire for certain factions to attack Western civilians rather than military targets.

Thought the march seemed to go off well. Was a bit disappointed with Galloway *again* trying to get the crowd whipped up in support for Hamas, which I still can't get my head around, but there were lots of balanced viewpoints to be overheard. Got chatting to a really nice couple and their two kids from Brixton in a queue for a bacon roll (love it... only food stall open in Hyde Park during a rally about a Muslim/Jewish problem was a bacon/hot dog/pork stall).

We'd gone by the time any trouble started... when we started to get into the bottleneck we began to think perhaps it wasn't such a great idea to stick around. That and my feet felt like they were about to fall off.



On a sidenote: No matter what the history of the company, vandalising and looting *franchises* is NOT the one. You don't hurt Starbucks Corp at all, you just hurt a local businessperson. Anger's great when it's focussed in a constructive direction... but that's just a symptom of angry people not knowing where to direct their ire, surely?



Oh, and doomtube, your post was so good I didn't even make a Gazza joke.





Maybe I did.

[badga tek]

All i know is that if the sight of our march in london this weekend gives one palestinian child hope or the idea that in some country practically on a different planet from Gazza people are angry about this situation ....its a start.

This. The visible symbol is as big a thing as anything. It's important that people know that even if our government doesn't necessarily always take heed, our people are compassionate and empathetic towards fellow human beings. At the very least, this can give a bit of hope to people in a difficult time; at best it can reduce the desire for certain factions to attack Western civilians rather than military targets.

Thought the march seemed to go off well. Was a bit disappointed with Galloway *again* trying to get the crowd whipped up in support for Hamas, which I still can't get my head around, but there were lots of balanced viewpoints to be overheard. Got chatting to a really nice couple and their two kids from Brixton in a queue for a bacon roll (love it... only food stall open in Hyde Park during a rally about a Muslim/Jewish problem was a bacon/hot dog/pork stall).

We'd gone by the time any trouble started... when we started to get into the bottleneck we began to think perhaps it wasn't such a great idea to stick around. That and my feet felt like they were about to fall off.



On a sidenote: No matter what the history of the company, vandalising and looting *franchises* is NOT the one. You don't hurt Starbucks Corp at all, you just hurt a local businessperson. Anger's great when it's focussed in a constructive direction... but that's just a symptom of angry people not knowing where to direct their ire, surely?

I agree with this.

I was there on Saturday too. When one of the few things we could have collectively hoped to achieve would have been to show the level of support for the plight of the Palestinians in the face of great Israeli violence, allowing parts of the march to degenerate into violence was self-defeating. Looting a store is never going to have a constructive impact. Indeed, most of the mainstream press coverage has, unsurprisingly, focused on the violence.

I, too, left the protest once parts of the crowd around the embassy gates once some of the violence had started. I couldn't see the police do much wrong while I was there.

To anyone who wasn't there, the crowd was an incredibly diverse mix of people and, indeed, I completely disagreed with the politics of many sections of the crowd. The chant of, "Palestine will be free, from the ocean to the sea," is basically a desire to liberate all of Palestine (i.e. wipe Israel off the map) which I don't agree with. Furthermore, the argument that Hamas should be supported because they're democratically elected is not one I adhere to at all. I'm as against Hamas as I am Israel in this conflict. Still, Galloway's always been a twat.

[tr0tsky]

Is Starbucks a franchise? I don't for a second think that somehow trashing a shop is going to save the world but in our analysis of what happened we need to understand -why- the anarchists did it.

These are the reasons that I think the anarchist block smashed the windows of Starbucks, though I may be wrong.

They make a profit from the produce made on illegal Israeli settlements in Gaza and on the West Bank.

Their CEO is an active supporter and legitimiser (if that's even a word) is the racist Israeli state.

They happily make profit supporting the US in Guantanamo.

They're responsible for driving family-run, local coffeeshops out of business.

They're part of the Americanisation of cultures across the world.

They represent American big-bucks capitalism.

They make fucking piss-poor coffee.

The chant of, "Palestine will be free, from the ocean to the sea," is basically a desire to liberate all of Palestine (i.e. wipe Israel off the map) which I don't agree with.

What's the problem with the chant? Of course it doesn't mean "drive the Jews into the sea", but I for one am fully in favour of a single, democratic Palestine. One for the Jews, Christians, Druze, Samaratans, Muslims and Athiests to live together.

Israel is a racist apartheid state built upon racist, apartheid principles. Anything other than arguing for a single state legitimises this. Nobody during the 80's said "a state for the Afrikaaner, and the Bantustans for the blacks!". They said a democratic, multiracial republic.

Israel would never allow a democratic, functioning, stable Palestine to exist. To think otherwise would be madness.

What sort of Israel would you want to see? 1968 boaders? 1948 boaders?

Viva Palestina liberá!

[badga tek]

The chant of, "Palestine will be free, from the ocean to the sea," is basically a desire to liberate all of Palestine (i.e. wipe Israel off the map) which I don't agree with.

What's the problem with the chant? Of course it doesn't mean "drive the Jews into the sea", but I for one am fully in favour of a single, democratic Palestine. One for the Jews, Christians, Druze, Samaratans, Muslims and Athiests to live together.

Israel is a racist apartheid state built upon racist, apartheid principles. Anything other than arguing for a single state legitimises this. Nobody during the 80's said "a state for the Afrikaaner, and the Bantustans for the blacks!". They said a democratic, multiracial republic.

Israel would never allow a democratic, functioning, stable Palestine to exist. To think otherwise would be madness.

What sort of Israel would you want to see? 1968 boaders? 1948 boaders?

Viva Palestina liberá!

Ok. I certainly take the point that a single, democratic, secular state would be the best solution to the problem. I don't see that happening though. The only viable solution that I could ever imagine coming to fruition would be a two-state solution based upon pre-1967 borders. It is sad that I find it so hard to imagine a single, peaceful, unified state but I can't see it ever happening. The problem in Israel/Palestine, to my mind, is far more intractable than South Africa was.

As for the point about Israel being a racist apartheid state, you may be right. But let us not airbrush the fact that Israel's Arab neighbour states refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of a Jewish state in the Middle East and actively pursued its destruction for many years. Furthermore, Arafat did not recognise Israel's right to exist until the 1980s and Hamas still refuse to do so. If that is not equally racist and consistent with a policy of apartheid then I don't know what is! I'm not apologising for Israel's actions either in the past or at the current time but the comparison must be made.

[umkhontowesizwe]

What's the problem with the chant? Of course it doesn't mean "drive the Jews into the sea", but I for one am fully in favour of a single, democratic Palestine. One for the Jews, Christians, Druze, Samaratans, Muslims and Athiests to live together.

Israel is a racist apartheid state built upon racist, apartheid principles. Anything other than arguing for a single state legitimises this. Nobody during the 80's said "a state for the Afrikaaner, and the Bantustans for the blacks!". They said a democratic, multiracial republic.

Israel would never allow a democratic, functioning, stable Palestine to exist. To think otherwise would be madness.

What sort of Israel would you want to see? 1968 boaders? 1948 boaders?

Viva Palestina liberá!

off topic here, but i find it a bit odd that you're deploring israel for being a 'racist apartheid state' while at the same time sporting a signature picture that represents a regime whose former leader has been convicted of genocide?

[doomtube]

Its good a few of us London based dubstep forum inhabitants (couldn't think of a better word) got out for the march.

I really hope we don't have to do it again but having just seen the news (and bengas tune on an advert for a program about paul burrel what the fuck is going on!!!!) i have a feeling that we may have to do it again, if so lets get together!!

[doomtube]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... eignpolicy

this is a bit of good new though.....

[__________]

Okay of course there are going to be people with genuine cultural reasons for wanting to protest against it.

However, in my experience the amount of 'urbanists' i see at protests and rallies standing about shouting the odds with their posters just looking like stnuc is definitely enough to justify what i said.

if you can't have a peaceful protest about something, ANYTHING, without getting beaten the fuck up by the police - its not a fair country.

what's wrong with protesting about israel? i couldn't think of many better things to protest!

[doomtube]

I said to myself i wouldn't get involved in arguments but....
I think there were 40-50 thousand people marching in london on saturday, I think a maximum of 200-300 hardcore (very angry) protesters ended up in scuffles with the filth. Plus it has to be said the police do NOTHING to calm the situation and EVERYTHING to escalate the anger etc. of the few wanting to kick off.
The whole hasam for/against thing for me is hard to get my head around, i missed galloways speech (i saw all the ones before the march and have to say was so cold by the end i couldn't feel my feet) so can't say anything about that but i think violence by the oppressed against the oppressor is understandable.

smashing up a coffee shop? starbucks have never made good coffee and that really pisses me off so i say lets fire bomb the lot....

[doomtube]

hasam(what) I ment hamas !!!!!!!!!... too busy watching the one show!!

[umkhontowesizwe]

but i think violence by the oppressed against the oppressor is understandable.

agreed, but in my mind sending people to blow themselves up in nightclubs and coffee shops doesn't really count as violence against the oppressor.

[jackieboi]

Okay of course there are going to be people with genuine cultural reasons for wanting to protest against it.

However, in my experience the amount of 'urbanists' i see at protests and rallies standing about shouting the odds with their posters just looking like stnuc is definitely enough to justify what i said.

if you can't have a peaceful protest about something, ANYTHING, without getting beaten the fuck up by the police - its not a fair country.

what's wrong with protesting about israel? i couldn't think of many better things to protest!

I suppose i'm just not the protesting type, if something happens that i dont like i'll get it the way i like it. If its beyond my control then I'll get over it and find some way to get round it. I see no purpose in gathering round protesting about things i suppose the reasons for that are that i dont believe it does any good HOWEVER after reading some of the posts in this threa i can see what yous mean in terms of giving the people of palestine hope that theyre problems are being felt worldwide etc etc.

Still think the bother involved far outweighs the good it does though. Good on yous for feeling so strongly about it mind!!

[tr0tsky]

What's the problem with the chant? Of course it doesn't mean "drive the Jews into the sea", but I for one am fully in favour of a single, democratic Palestine. One for the Jews, Christians, Druze, Samaratans, Muslims and Athiests to live together.

Israel is a racist apartheid state built upon racist, apartheid principles. Anything other than arguing for a single state legitimises this. Nobody during the 80's said "a state for the Afrikaaner, and the Bantustans for the blacks!". They said a democratic, multiracial republic.

Israel would never allow a democratic, functioning, stable Palestine to exist. To think otherwise would be madness.

What sort of Israel would you want to see? 1968 boaders? 1948 boaders?

Viva Palestina liberá!

off topic here, but i find it a bit odd that you're deploring israel for being a 'racist apartheid state' while at the same time sporting a signature picture that represents a regime whose former leader has been convicted of genocide?

Is it? I thought the picture was made by somebody.

Now that I think about it, it could be the Derg's. If you're about to tell me it's the case I'm officialy a fucking idiot for not checking before hand. I'm gonna check.

[resktwo]

i didn;t read everything cuz it;s all the same. i have to say something.

i am from israel
i am usually a radical leftist.
i volunteer for amnesty international.
i dropped out of the army.
i am a normal person,no brainwashes or anything. at all.

this war is causing the deaths of hundreds of innocent palestinians, which is definatly heartbreaking. but god, stop it, you don't know shit.
first of all, what about us? why did the world forget there are people behind this horrible army? 8 years, for 8 years our houses got bombed by hamas terrorists. i know i know, gazans don't have enpough food and sometimes they don't have any elecricity. but we are a country too, and or people got killed by terrorist attacks, without us being able to do something about this becaue you people hated us enough as it is.
i don't support the war, i cry for every palestinian child which s being killed, but do you know why there are so many deaths?
when hamas launches a missile, the idf is bombing the launcher.
the hamas is puting children and women near the launcher, to increase the deaths, so that you people would go out and prretest.
every time the idf is bombing a house they call first and warn the civilians , hamas doesn't let them go out, i didn't hear it, ive been there.

THE HAMAS USESPEOPLE AS A HUMAN SHIELD UNDER AND JUSTIFYING IT IN THE NAME OF ALLAH.


and don't ever think about comparing the gaza war to the holocaust. whoever thinks there's any similaritis between the two is ignorant. i know a lot about this war, a lot about the holocaust and i've been to both places. this is a war. seriously.

i support, like many other in my country, the dividing of isrel to two ifferent countries. and i support the fatah's effort to create a better nation for the palestinians. hamas is a satanic organization, and since it controls gaza, the situation in gaza got a million times worse, and now we kill innocent people like a fucking ignorants, while they make sur we kill as many as they can put in a room.

also, in the site boycottisrael.com

all of the products are jewish relaed, not israeli. plase don't turn thein to an antisemitic thing.

i know yo think i'm brainwashed and i can never change your mind. i just want you to know, but in fact, you are just as brainwashed as me.
i am a well educated person, a dubstep producer , just like you guys. as a leftist i try to see the situation both ways, and i do. i am against the war and the killing of innocent people, but hamas is to blame as much as the idf. no less. i know this work is not right, i know idf killed 9xx innocent civilians to this hour, i know and i am ashamed. but only ask of you, at least try to understand what its all about, or at least think about the last 8 years in southern israel.


by the way, when i talk to isarelis i am a very radical anti war dude, i just hate the wayyou don't even try to think whywe are doing what we are doing, ever, or put you self in our situation.

[resktwo]

jst FYI
and please don't start comparing, i know and heard everything.

1 million israelis live within fire range for 8 years.

while israel basically neglected them for the passed 8 years.

nothing justifies the killing, just wanted to let you know.

the numbers are unproportionate, i know, but be sure,hamas wants it to be that way, and makes sure it stays that way.
hamas is responsible for the distruction as much as the idf.

another thing.. humanitarian aid.. the hamas steals all the food before it gets to the people, so that its solildiers will be able to keep fighting in the name of allah.

i truly think you people got so caught up with the horrible pictures that you cant even see what we are dealing with. i mean, you see hamas, you think palestine, i ust don't understand what hamas means, stand for, did to the gazan people while controling gaza etc etc.


i fucking hate our army, i feelbad for the palestinian people, and wishthem all peace and quiet, and a country of their own.