Do you think that using loops/presets/sample packs is 'lazy'

[djake]

Loops are silly...WTF!!


Drum breaks are an essential tool of all producers!!...it is almost impossible to recreate a live drum break feeling with single hits...drum breaks are a must..dnb wouldnt exist without loops!!

i use breaks all the time..obivously i cut the up to fit the tune but i use them in nearly 100% of tunes (maybe a bit less for Dubstep due to its sparseness)

I don't think anyone's disputing that, everyone here knows the importance of drum breaks (Amen Break, Funky Drummer, Apache Break etc.) Without sampling breaks there wouldn't be 10% of the music we have today. However there's a difference between using a classic break, and a 2 bar FX loop that someone made on a Moog and put online.

if u can convince me there is a difference then i will believe you...

for one they where both made by someone else....

secondly most people have downloaded them from the internet that some put online and they usally come in a breaks sample pack.

is it just because there is a whole scene built up around it that its ok?

[rendr]

Loops are silly...WTF!!


Drum breaks are an essential tool of all producers!!...it is almost impossible to recreate a live drum break feeling with single hits...drum breaks are a must..dnb wouldnt exist without loops!!

i use breaks all the time..obivously i cut the up to fit the tune but i use them in nearly 100% of tunes (maybe a bit less for Dubstep due to its sparseness)

I don't think anyone's disputing that, everyone here knows the importance of drum breaks (Amen Break, Funky Drummer, Apache Break etc.) Without sampling breaks there wouldn't be 10% of the music we have today. However there's a difference between using a classic break, and a 2 bar FX loop that someone made on a Moog and put online.

if u can convince me there is a difference then i will believe you...

for one they where both made by someone else....

secondly most people have downloaded them from the internet that some put online and they usally come in a breaks sample pack.

is it just because there is a whole scene built up around it that its ok?

...seriously?

Surely anyone who has the slightest interest in music would know the importance of breaks (Hip Hop, Drum & Bass: just two genres that wouldn't exist without breaks!)

It's okay to use breaks and drum hits (imo) because not everyone has a drum kit, mic to record & the skills to play the drums etc. But nowadays anyone with a PC/Mac can download a synth and program their own patches. The difference mainly being that without artists / DJs using breaks there would be no dubstep.

[djake]

Loops are silly...WTF!!


Drum breaks are an essential tool of all producers!!...it is almost impossible to recreate a live drum break feeling with single hits...drum breaks are a must..dnb wouldnt exist without loops!!

i use breaks all the time..obivously i cut the up to fit the tune but i use them in nearly 100% of tunes (maybe a bit less for Dubstep due to its sparseness)

I don't think anyone's disputing that, everyone here knows the importance of drum breaks (Amen Break, Funky Drummer, Apache Break etc.) Without sampling breaks there wouldn't be 10% of the music we have today. However there's a difference between using a classic break, and a 2 bar FX loop that someone made on a Moog and put online.

if u can convince me there is a difference then i will believe you...

for one they where both made by someone else....

secondly most people have downloaded them from the internet that some put online and they usally come in a breaks sample pack.

is it just because there is a whole scene built up around it that its ok?

...seriously?

Surely anyone who has the slightest interest in music would know the importance of breaks (Hip Hop, Drum & Bass: just two genres that wouldn't exist without breaks!)

It's okay to use breaks and drum hits (imo) because not everyone has a drum kit, mic to record & the skills to play the drums etc. But nowadays anyone with a PC/Mac can download a synth and program their own patches. The difference mainly being that without artists / DJs using breaks there would be no dubstep.

hip hop producers used all sorts of samples not just breaks thou and some of them pretty blatently.

what if u after a sound of vintage synth that cant be reproduced on any soft synth, and you found a sample on line and it was perfect just what u wanted....u wouldnt use it?

[magma]

Whatever your ingredients, the only thing that matters is the final product. It all depends on how you use things... some presets can be really useful (often for simpler sounds), but if your main hook is the first preset on Massive, then people are going to notice and your track will lose a bit of it's mystique (actually a surprisingly big thing in dance music - "HOW THE FUCK DID THEY DO THAT?").

Loops are a bit more tricky, but with the right processing you can take pretty much any source material and make it your own. I tend to make my own breaks because I can't find loops that exactly match what I want.

Don't forget that Jungle was *invented* with sampled loops

[rendr]

Loops are silly...WTF!!


Drum breaks are an essential tool of all producers!!...it is almost impossible to recreate a live drum break feeling with single hits...drum breaks are a must..dnb wouldnt exist without loops!!

i use breaks all the time..obivously i cut the up to fit the tune but i use them in nearly 100% of tunes (maybe a bit less for Dubstep due to its sparseness)

I don't think anyone's disputing that, everyone here knows the importance of drum breaks (Amen Break, Funky Drummer, Apache Break etc.) Without sampling breaks there wouldn't be 10% of the music we have today. However there's a difference between using a classic break, and a 2 bar FX loop that someone made on a Moog and put online.

if u can convince me there is a difference then i will believe you...

for one they where both made by someone else....

secondly most people have downloaded them from the internet that some put online and they usally come in a breaks sample pack.

is it just because there is a whole scene built up around it that its ok?

...seriously?

Surely anyone who has the slightest interest in music would know the importance of breaks (Hip Hop, Drum & Bass: just two genres that wouldn't exist without breaks!)

It's okay to use breaks and drum hits (imo) because not everyone has a drum kit, mic to record & the skills to play the drums etc. But nowadays anyone with a PC/Mac can download a synth and program their own patches. The difference mainly being that without artists / DJs using breaks there would be no dubstep.

hip hop producers used all sorts of samples not just breaks thou and some of them pretty blatently.

what if u after a sound of vintage synth that cant be reproduced on any soft synth, and you found a sample on line and it was perfect just what u wanted....u wouldnt use it?

Well not to seem like a tnuc who keeps dodging the questions, but the most vintage sounds I've ever gone after are the high pitch whine found on 90's gangsta rap albums, and deep soulful pads found in early 90's hardcore/jungle; both of which I can make on a synth. So I don't really know if I would use a sample of synth sound.

But when it comes to drum hits & breaks I don't class it so much as sampling because it's not like I have a choice unlike with an FX, pad or bass.


And for Hip Hop, I was refuring to early early stuff, Africa Bambatta rinsing the Apatche tune, not Eazy mutha fuckin E & Dr Dre. When it was all about the breaks, which gave birth to Hip Hop and Electro.

[rynke]

about that whole sampled loop vs. pre made loop that comes with a DAW/sample pack etc. discussion.. i personally think its alright if you've sampled a loop and pumped it up 40 bpm, layered it with your own loop, + boosting it in the EQ / chopping it up and fucking around with it, etc... but just using a loop that came with your DAW / samplepack without doing any thing to it is pretty weak, if you ask me... I mean think about it.. A track pretty much cosists of a beat and various synths. If you use a loop that you havent done anything to, you've only made 50% of the track yourself.

[djake]

Well not to seem like a tnuc who keeps dodging the questions.

what questions? <<<<< thats a question

[lowerthanlower]

Whenever I use a 'preset' or FX from a sample pack, I always chop or stretch it... add filters etc. I hate the thought that something ive 'made' was in fact made by someone else. I like to have the final say I suppose.

So, I think its fine to use them.. just as long as you intend on making it your own (as much as possible) Thats my opinion.

As for drum loops... bad idea. That for me, is the foundation of a track. Thats where I take most pride and have the most fun with.
Drum rolls and things is fine, because thats alot like chopping a synth sample... its just a crop of a longer sound.

Overall, its what you choose to do with it I feel is most important.

Ive gotta say, when I hear Benga using that 'Pleasure' sample, it bugged me a little... but even with that said, it worked.

[zgomot]

A lot of what's been said in this thread, sounds to me like pretentious wank.

Nothing is original any more. One way or another we are all taking inspiration from (read copying) artists/tracks we like, adding our own interpretation of things, admittedly, but the end result is never ground breaking, nor new, let alone original.

Dubstep, at it's very origins wasn't anything new, just someone's interpretation of dub/grime/garage. Same with jungle and drum and bass (sped up, breaky hardcore anyone?)

I think we all need to get over ourselves and simply enjoy the music we make. It hasn't got to be revolutionary... Nice will do.

[rynke]

A lot of what's been said in this thread, sounds to me like pretentious wank.

Nothing is original any more. One way or another we are all taking inspiration from (read copying) artists/tracks we like, adding our own interpretation of things, admittedly, but the end result is never ground breaking, nor new, let alone original.

You sound like some one thats very tired of making music...

Ive gotta say, when I hear Benga using that 'Pleasure' sample, it bugged me a little... but even with that said, it worked.

Voice samples is something completely different imo. Its the hunt for the perfect accapella thats always slowing down my production, or completely stopping it.

I mean, it takes time and skills to learn how to make great bass and making your own loops and so on, but you can never imitate or learn how to sing, if you just cant sing Imagine Benga trying to imitate that 'slutty' voice? Nah, wouldnt really have the same feel to it, would it?:)

[silentk]

drum breaks. i dont get it, i have never used a drum break, in a dubstep tune ever, i dont understand why everyone else does? im not trying to knock anyones production, infact if anything im pointing myself out as the strange one. i dont really how an old funk break or something can fit in an atmospheric dubstep tune, and why are they seen as so important, you could easily make a blinding tune without sticking an amen or something in it?

whats makes using breaks so important to people?

[wave o]

I personally hardly ever use samples, I really don't have anything against it, I mean, sampling is an art form when done right. Like others said, if you can name every sample you hear in a track, they probably were not used in the most creative way that they could of been.

The DSF sample 9 contest is probably the first track I have ever made that consisted of only using samples, I love to use virtual instruments and hardware synths. Part of the fun is to generate the sounds yourself, creating your own clips to use as samples for example. There is a great feeling when you make a track and every sound in there is one you tweaked and created. At least for me that is.

I use to make tons of Hip Hop back in the 90's, even then I tried to stay away from using too many samples. Now adays with all the great software available to create your own sound sets, it really is part of the fun for me.

These tracks here have no samples, I edited various synths to create these sounds....

http://www.myspace.com/wave0matic

I have friends that use sampling like an art though, you would never even guess where some of the samples came from, even if they are sound bytes that almost anyone would know. Thats dope in my opinon.

[elbe]

Its all about how you use them. they are time saving. although If you don't work into them they sound weak, honestly how many presets or samples from a pack have you come across that don't need tweaking, processing, layering?

I find it is often best to do it yourself, especially with samples, the ones in packs often to thin, but take one from a tune, talking single hit here, and you need to do less work as it already has lots of character. but this takes time, tracking down the right sample, it is often much easier to use a pack and make do

[djake]

drum breaks. i dont get it, i have never used a drum break, in a dubstep tune ever, i dont understand why everyone else does? im not trying to knock anyones production, infact if anything im pointing myself out as the strange one. i dont really how an old funk break or something can fit in an atmospheric dubstep tune, and why are they seen as so important, you could easily make a blinding tune without sticking an amen or something in it?

whats makes using breaks so important to people?

yea i build all my drums from single hits

[silentk]

drum breaks. i dont get it, i have never used a drum break, in a dubstep tune ever, i dont understand why everyone else does? im not trying to knock anyones production, infact if anything im pointing myself out as the strange one. i dont really how an old funk break or something can fit in an atmospheric dubstep tune, and why are they seen as so important, you could easily make a blinding tune without sticking an amen or something in it?

whats makes using breaks so important to people?

yea i build all my drums from single hits

this

much bigger sense of achievement.

[kidlogic]

What if Jazz musicians felt similar? Meaning, what if say, Miles Davis just gave up on the trumpet because it sounded too much like every other trumpet player's trumpet? Dont come back at me with a "but Miles sounded very different to other trumpet players..." because thats my point. He did. But in a sense, he was using the same "preset" as everyone else. Its all in what you do with it.

Using a loop whole can be lazy, but why work super hard if you dont have to? If it fits, and sounds good, then why not use it? Im not gonna walk to the store on my hands just for more of a "sense of achievement". At the same time though, yeah, I might try it a time or two to see if I could...

My point is the same as my teachers had while going to school for audio engineering... There is no wrong way to do anything in music. If it gets you the sound you want, then it is the right way.

[Brisance]

What if Jazz musicians felt similar? Meaning, what if say, Miles Davis just gave up on the trumpet because it sounded too much like every other trumpet player's trumpet? Dont come back at me with a "but Miles sounded very different to other trumpet players..." because thats my point. He did. But in a sense, he was using the same "preset" as everyone else. Its all in what you do with it.

Using a loop whole can be lazy, but why work super hard if you dont have to? If it fits, and sounds good, then why not use it? Im not gonna walk to the store on my hands just for more of a "sense of achievement". At the same time though, yeah, I might try it a time or two to see if I could...

My point is the same as my teachers had while going to school for audio engineering... There is no wrong way to do anything in music. If it gets you the sound you want, then it is the right way.

It all depends on why do you make music.

[wave o]

Absolutely right, its what you do with it and how you do it that changes it all. Most classic an d 70's rock bands, for example, used the norms in instruments, guitar, bass, drums, keys, etc. But its how they used them that has made many classics through the years. Each on has its feel, regardless if they use the same instrument.

For example, Pink Floyd, mostly used the standard instruments, but what they produced was anything but standard.

Like I said, sampling is an art for many, its how its used that really shows the skills in production in my opinion. For example, people like Puff Daddy sample basically a whole fucking song, add some kick and snares to beef it up, and makes millions. Smart ass business man, hehe, but in my opinion that is weak and lazy sampling.

There is no wrong way of doing anything in music, I believe that too, but there are other approaches that can give you more satisfaction, at least for me I should say, when I don't have to use a shortcut and make what I want to how I want to, sure the process is longer sometimes, but at least you have complete control on how you lay down your beat.

What I do like to do sometimes with I hear a really dope kick drum or some sound, is just load that kick in impluse on Ableton, construct a drum set, then sequence some patterns/clips. I find it great to work in a midi track better than an audio track.

It really comes down to preference I think. As long as cats make good music and have fun doing it, that is the main point. My only opinion that I feel on the subject is I get greater satisfaction not having to use a sampled drum pattern, sample a whole 4 bars, or whatever. But thats just me, I'm old school, hehe.

What I like to do is when I do use sample, I create them many time, mic things up, various sounds and noises, and add them in my arrangements sometimes.

Good topic you guys!