Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by test_recordings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:35 am

kay wrote:Found this article yesterday: In Search of Better Antidepressants

A new study from researchers at MIT and Stanford University pinpoints brain cells that appear to be critically involved in depression, offering a possible target for new, more effective antidepressants.

By stimulating these cells to deliver dopamine to other parts of the brain, the researchers were able to immediately eliminate symptoms of depression in mice. They also induced depression in normal mice by shutting off the dopamine source.

The findings could help researchers develop antidepressants that are more precisely targeted, says Kay Tye, an assistant professor of brain and cognitive sciences at MIT and one of the lead authors of a paper on the work appearing in the Dec. 12 online edition of Nature.

“The first step to achieving a new era of therapy is identifying targets like these,” says Tye, who is a member of MIT’s Picower Institute for Learning and Memory. “The fact that this target exists, I really hope it motivates drug companies to revitalize their neuroscience research groups.”

Tye performed much of the research as a postdoc in the lab of Stanford professor Karl Deisseroth, the senior author of the paper. Other lead authors are Stanford research assistant Julie Mirzabekov and Stanford postdoc Melissa Warden.

Finding targets

Depression affects an estimated one in 10 Americans, many of whom receive drugs that boost the brain chemical serotonin. However, these drugs (which include Prozac) require four to six weeks to have any effect. This suggests, Tye says, that serotonin may not be part of the brain system most responsible for depression-related symptoms.

“If serotonin was directly underlying the antidepressant effects of Prozac, then the very first day you take Prozac you should feel the effects, because that’s what it’s targeting immediately,” she says. “The fact that it takes so long for the drug to work makes me think that the immediate effect of the drug itself is not having an antidepressant effect. When you have the drug in your system for a long time, the brain adapts, and the adaptation might actually be what is underlying the antidepressant effects of these drugs.”

Finding more specific targets, rather than dousing the whole brain in chemicals, is key to developing better therapies, Tye says.

The researchers decided to investigate the dopamine system because it is known to play a major role in reward, motivation and pleasure. People suffering from depression often lack motivation, so dopamine has been considered a prime suspect in the disease. “Depressed patients will move around less, they have trouble getting out of bed, they don’t enjoy things that they used to enjoy,” Tye says.

Additionally, Parkinson’s disease patients, who suffer from dramatically reduced dopamine levels that severely impair their movements, often experience depression before the complete onset of Parkinson’s symptoms.

Dopamine control

For this study, the researchers used a relatively new technology known as optogenetics to selectively inhibit or stimulate dopamine-releasing neurons in the ventral tegmental area (VTA), which is a primary source of the brain’s dopamine for reward and motivation.

Optogenetics allows scientists to control neurons’ activity by genetically engineering them to express a light-sensitive protein that regulates the flow of ions in and out of the cell. Exposing these neurons to light turns them on or off nearly instantaneously. This offers a much more precise way of manipulating brain circuits than drugs, which can influence neighboring neurons and take more time to exert their effects.

In the first part of the study, the researchers turned off VTA dopamine-releasing neurons in normal mice. This immediately provoked depression-like symptoms, including a decline in motivation and the inability to feel pleasure.

Next, the researchers tested what would happen if they turned on VTA neurons in mice showing symptoms of depression. To generate depressive behavior, these mice were exposed to some type of mild stress twice a day for 10 weeks. Stressors included disruptions in circadian rhythms, social isolation, overcrowding or changes in temperature.

In humans, depression is often induced by similar patterns of low-grade but constant stress, Tye says.

This chronic mild stress is very different from severe acute stress, which can lead to post-traumatic stress disorder, Tye says. “It’s more like a wearing away, where you don’t really feel like you’re in control. You never know what’s going to happen. You just feel helpless as all these frustrating or annoying things happen.”

When the researchers caused the VTA neurons in these mice to fire in bursts, flooding their brains with dopamine, the mice returned to normal behavior patterns within about 10 seconds.

Neurons in the VTA send dopamine to many different parts of the brain, but the researchers found that dopamine signals sent to the nucleus accumbens, known to play roles in reward, pleasure, fear and addiction, appear to have the most important role in controlling depression.

‘A bird’s-eye view’

James Bibb, an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, says the new study represents a “tour de force of cutting-edge neuroscience.”

“This gives us a completely new bird’s-eye view of the critical synapses that will need to be targeted to more effectively treat mood disorders,” says Bibb, who was not part of the research team. “Antidepressants represent the largest share of the mental-illness drug market and drug developers may very well use this information to come up with new and greatly needed treatments for those [who] suffer from major depressive disorder.”

In her current research, Tye is looking for more new targets for antidepressants, both in the dopamine circuit studied in this paper and in other parts of the brain. She is also interested in examining how stress experienced early in life can influence health later on.
Nice but, unfortunately, dopamine is probably going to be ceased to be credited with `happy feelings` in the not so far future as a paradigm shift is building showing that it`s probably more related to salient phenomena. Evidence actually started building up straight after it was initially named as the `reward hormone` etc but the media went off on one, as did scientists.
UConn Today wrote:To John Salamone, professor of psychology and longtime researcher of the brain chemical dopamine, scientific research can be very slow-moving.

“It takes a long time for things to change in science,” he says. “It’s like pulling on the steering wheel of an ocean liner, then waiting for the huge ship to slowly turn.”

Salamone, a UConn Board of Trustees Distinguished Professor, has spent most of his career battling a particular long-held scientific idea: the popular notion that high levels of brain dopamine are related to experiences of pleasure. As increasing numbers of studies show, he says, the famous neurotransmitter is not responsible for pleasure, but has to do with motivation.

He summarizes and comments on the evidence for this shift in thinking in a Nov. 8 review in the Cell Press journal Neuron.

In the early 1980’s, explains Salamone, the National Institute on Drug Abuse put out a call for research on the neurological basis for drug abuse and addiction.

The research that ensued built support for the idea that when the brain produced elevated amounts of dopamine, it was accompanied by perceptions of pleasure. The chemical quickly became known for this relationship, which was thought to be important for responding to drugs and other motivational substances, such as food.

The chemical, which was formerly only thought to play a small role in movement, became over the subsequent decades among the most well-known and important in the brain. It turned out to be so important that it found its way into popular culture, with dozens of self-help books and websites explaining its relationship to feelings of happiness and reward.

But over time, Salamone’s studies and those of others started revealing problems. In animals, dopamine levels can spike after stress, such as losing a fight with another animal. Soldiers dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder also show activity in dopamine-rich parts of the brain when hearing recorded gunshots and other combat sounds.

“Low levels of dopamine make people and other animals less likely to work for things, so it has more to do with motivation and cost/benefit analyses than pleasure itself.”

So if dopamine was really the pleasure element, then why all this association with negative experiences?

Salamone’s research over the past 15 years has attempted to find an answer to that question. His work involves artificially raising or lowering dopamine levels in animals, then giving them a choice between two rewards with different value, which can be obtained through different amounts of work.

For example, what will a rat do when on one end of a corridor there’s a pile of food, but on the other end there’s a pile of food twice as big with a small fence to jump over on the way?

As Salamone’s studies have showed, animals with lowered levels of dopamine almost always choose the easy, low-value reward, while animals with normal levels don’t mind exerting the effort to jump the fence for the high-value reward.

Other studies in humans have corroborated these results, such as research with depressed patients.

“Often, depressed people say they don’t want to go out with their friends,” says Salamone. But it’s not that they don’t experience pleasure, he says – if their friends were around, many depressed people could have fun.

“Low levels of dopamine make people and other animals less likely to work for things, so it has more to do with motivation and cost/benefit analyses than pleasure itself,” he explains.

In essence, says Salamone, this is how amphetamines work, which increase dopamine levels and help people motivate to focus on tasks at hand.

“When you give people amphetamines, you see them putting more effort into things,” he says.

The big implications of this change in understanding come at the level of overlapping motivational symptoms of depression with those seen in other disorders such as schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, and Parkinson’s disease. Symptoms of fatigue may be related to low levels of dopamine or changes in other parts of the same brain circuitry.

On the one hand, this lack of perceived energy is maladaptive, because it reduces the tendency to interact with the environment. But, Salamone says, it could also reflect the body’s attempt to save energy in a crisis.

He points out that new ideas in science are traditionally met with criticism. But after all the mounting evidence, he says he’s no longer regarded as “a crazy rebel,” but simply someone who thought differently.

“Science is not a collection of facts. It’s a process,” he says. “First we thought dopamine was involved only in movement. Then that faded and we thought it was pleasure. Now we’ve gone beyond that data on pleasure.”

Although he has thought about writing a popular-press book, he’s not sure he really wants to go to the public and “debunk” the dopamine hypothesis of pleasure and reward. But if he ever does, one thing is for sure.

“I can sum up all this work with one phrase, which would make a great book title,” he says. “Dopamine: it’s not about pleasure anymore.”

Salamone’s work has been funded by the National Institute of Mental Health, a division of the National Institutes of Health, and by the National Institute on Drug Abuse. His co-author is Mercè Correa of the Universitat Jaume I in Spain.
Source: http://today.uconn.edu/blog/2012/11/uco ... e-anymore/

This could also rework the actual nature of depression: is it an anhedonic phenomena, a lack of motivation, or is mainstream science just missing out the actual life of a person and just using simple chemistry models as a cheap replacement?
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by Sonika » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:10 am

So essentially it's suggesting that it's possible a depressed person could still be happy, they just dont want to go out with friends?
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by test_recordings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:14 am

Sonika wrote:So essentially it's suggesting that it's possible a depressed person could still be happy, they just dont want to go out with friends?
Yeah, more importantly they`re not as `depressed` as initially apparent. Also, more evidence for passively receiving treatment being useless because it will never cure them and is actually missing the point. This will result in a reworking of depression as a diagnosis, I bet the actual label will take a long time to be gotten rid of due to cultural inertia. The only reason `schizophrenia` is still being used is because by 50 years ago everyone had got so used to the existence of it in name international panels were reluctant to get rid of it completely - i.e. it`s clinically and usefully dead, if not culturally.
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by kay » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:50 am

If you read the first article carefully in the context of the second, you'll find that they are not mutually exclusive. It relates dopamine to motivation as well. It's clear that the neurological pathways that lead to the group of disorders classed as depression are really unmapped and based on preconceptions rather than solid fact. There's so much of neurochemistry that remains unclear. Not helped by the inability to investigate to real effects of things like amphetamines due to misguided notions on a misguided war on drugs.

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:02 pm

I fully expect humors to come back into vogue.
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by test_recordings » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:42 am

kay wrote:If you read the first article carefully in the context of the second, you'll find that they are not mutually exclusive. It relates dopamine to motivation as well. It's clear that the neurological pathways that lead to the group of disorders classed as depression are really unmapped and based on preconceptions rather than solid fact. There's so much of neurochemistry that remains unclear. Not helped by the inability to investigate to real effects of things like amphetamines due to misguided notions on a misguided war on drugs.
Good point and of course they are not mutually exclusive, nothing really is. However, medical perspectives have been missing the point about what causes depression and how it should be dealt with by looking solely at dopaminergic systems.

I think disentangling depression from it`s correlation with apparently insufficient dopamine would open up more rewarding avenues of inquisition. As all good scientists should know, correlation does not imply automatic causation and, in this case, depression results from lack of social stimulation. As a related, if not directly connected, issue, low levels of dopamine can lead to lack of initiation or searching for social stimulation.

Let`s break it down to this flow chart:

1) Unknown antecedent -> 2) Insufficient dopamine -> 3) Potential lack of social stimulation -> 4) Depression SYMPTOMS

Of course, this is just one possible way that depression develops and is biochemical-related (dopamine, in this case). In other cases, lack of social stimulation, such as through solitary confinement, may cause a similar outcome but for different reasons. As should be noted, it is the lack of social stimulation that is the cause of depressive symptoms and so should be classified as the direct cause.

This is just a theoretical model though, so let`s critically and scientifically rip it to pieces! :4:
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by deadly_habit » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:07 am

I think we need less medication by under qualified psychologists/psychiatrists, the vast majority of them seem to be script pad heavy for normal deviations in human behavior. Over enthusiastic about something or a subject? ADHD or mild autism. Introvert? Give em some benzos or MAOIs.
Depression is definitely real, but it's not a condition that can be diagnosed like say the flu etc.
As someone who has been so depressed and messed up due to fuck knows since I consider the diagnosing doctors for psych shit as lost as I am, who has failed attempted at suicide and landed in a locked ward (mental instituation/sanitarium ward) for a bit since suicide is apparently crazy...
Meds for psych and depression half the time are just trial and error, that is basically the psych toolkit for diagnosing.
They have some general idea of what the "common" man should act like which would call most of our geniuses like say Einstein Sagan etc classified as psychologically flawed by their definitions.
I can say that after getting out of the military I probably do have PTSD to some degree, but not as bad as some others so it's another issue for psychiatric "medicine".
The MAOI they gave me landed me in the hospital a couple months later due to an apparent common allergic reaction to it which locked up all my muscles and the cure was a benodyrl shot. (Imagine you take pills supposed to help you, all of a sudden your arms and legs freeze and are painful to move)
They also gave me some other med for nightmares which are common for me, and say anxiety attacks (most i'm good with now after readjusting i honestly think it was going purely from a warzone back to civ life)
Those meds I got prescribed the max dose and it was a 50/50 chance I wouldn't have a nightmare or at least a pleasant nightmare/dream.
I ended up messing with benzos like Xanax which worked great self medicating (I have a history as a teen on record of experimenting with weed, acid etc so any controlled substance is banned to me by the VA), but without the proper advisement I started taking too many of those small pills and just a couple can make you lose all feel of emotions.

Now the TL;DR part I still have bouts of depression, but that's life, some need meds, some need time. It's a slippery slope, but the USA needs better medical and mental care.

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by test_recordings » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:06 am

Make your voice heard man, the UK has the opportunity to directly infuence policy either through the NHS or charities like Mind. Otherwise it`ll just just be more misguided, if well-intentioned, `assistance` :Q:
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:02 am

Would like to point out that many of the recent mass shooters here in the states were taking drugs like Prozac, and that Prozac and others, may be playing a roll in their aberrant behaviors.
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by magma » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:08 am

nowaysj wrote:Would like to point out that many of the recent mass shooters here in the states were taking drugs like Prozac, and that Prozac and others, may be playing a roll in their aberrant behaviors.
...or Prozac is the first port of call prescription for almost anyone suffering mental problems at the moment; you have to be mentally unwell to commit a massacre therefore you're likely to have been put on Prozac at some point.

Coincidence =/ Causality

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by deadly_habit » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:14 am

nowaysj wrote:Would like to point out that many of the recent mass shooters here in the states were taking drugs like Prozac, and that Prozac and others, may be playing a roll in their aberrant behaviors.
its rare that any mass shooter is minus some sort of bs kill for shooting... the usa is fucked imo

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:20 am

You have a penchant for stating the obvious, magma. :P

P and others have been shown to increase suicidal ideation, and the extreme behavior in these individuals may be attributable to that.
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by magma » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:39 am

Yep, but there's plenty of people on Prozac all over the UK and Europe... how come we don't go postal nearly as often?

I'd say it's a bit early and we're all a looooong way too removed from the individuals involved in these cases to start second guessing the state of someone's brain, but the fact that a mentally defunct individual is on brain medication doesn't seem terribly odd to me.

It seems more relevant that his mother was obsessive about the breakdown of society, removed him from mainstream school for home learning and stockpiled food and weapons in preparation for the end of modern civilisation. There was an awful lot more influencing this dude than a script for anti-depressants.

I've known a lot of people on Prozac. Not so many who were raised by nihilistic nutjobs. Even less that were raised by nihilistic nutjobs with access to assault weaponary.
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nowaysj wrote:I wholeheartedly believe that Michael Brown's mother and father killed him.

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:43 am

Mix a little Murdoch messaging, a little ssri, you get tragedy.
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by magma » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:51 am

Plenty happen without SSRI being necessary though. Brehvik wasn't on anti-depressants, was he? I don't think the Columbine kids were? Not sure, I must admit. Thomas Hamilton that committed our last big one, Dunblane wasn't on meds as far as I know.

I lean to thinking that people with minds able to do this sort of thing are just more likely to be experimenting with certain medications to 'control' the symptoms they experience every day - however 'unofficially' - Breivik apparently took certain recreationals to make himself a better 'soldier' - people with damaged brains often gravitate towards narcotics... but that doesn't mean it was the narcotics causing the brain damage. It's a pretty natural behaviour to try and 'fix' something that doesn't seem the same as everyone around you.
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nowaysj wrote:I wholeheartedly believe that Michael Brown's mother and father killed him.

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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:07 pm

magma wrote:the fact that a mentally defunct individual is on brain medication doesn't seem terribly odd to me.
Again, obviously, but what I find odd is that a medication that is supposed to treat depression has been shown to increase suicidal thoughts in 1:10 people and yet is still widely prescribed, and that when these mass killers are revealed to be taking these meds, there is no discussion of restricting or eliminating their prescription... But why would there be such discussion when they're so profitable, for the most profitable industry.
Alarming evidence from a new British study shows that the Prozac class of antidepressants can make healthy men, women and children with no history of depression feel suicidal.

The research undermines the claims of Eli Lilly, makers of Prozac, that people who kill themselves while on the tablets do so because of their depression, and that the disease, not the drug, is to blame for their suicide.

Its findings are particularly worrying because of the increasing numbers of people, including children, who are being given the drugs by their GP for mild depression, and who are not seriously clinically ill.

Prozac, the wonder pill of the 1980s and 1990s, became the biggest drug company blockbuster of all time, prescribed to more than 38m people around the world. It became a metaphor for late 20th century life and a cult in its own right, enshrined in a book called Prozac Nation.

What began as a medicine for the clinically depressed has been transformed by use and demand into a pill for minor ills.

But while the happy drug works for many people, in a significant number it can take them to the edge of despair. The study, conducted by David Healy, director of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine, reveals the real dangers for some of the SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), as Prozac and its imitators are called.

Nightmare

It found that two out of 20 healthy volunteers on an antidepressant in the Prozac class called Lustral (or Zoloft in the USA) became dangerously suicidal, compared with none of them when they were put on an antidepressant of a different class called reboxetine.

One 30-year-old woman who took part had a nightmare about having her throat slit after one week and by the end of a fortnight, was suicidal. "She felt hopeless and alone. It seemed that all she could do was to follow a thought that had been planted in her brain from some alien force. She suddenly decided she should go and throw herself in front of a car, that this was the only answer.

"It was as if there was nothing out there apart from the car, which she was going to throw herself under. She didn't think of her partner or child," says the study, published in the journal Primary Care Psychiatry.

Later she completed a diary entry, describing herself as jumpy, anxious and suspicious. "Her mind was racing and spiralling out of control. Then it went blank except for the clear thought that she must kill herself violently by throwing herself beneath a car or a train."

Dr Healy says the results of the research should be a warning to GPs prescribing any SSRIs. "They may not all be equally the same," he told the Guardian. "But the risk holds for the whole of the group. Generally the findings would indicate that women and children and those who are least ill may be most at risk."

All the drugs have been licensed as both safe and efficacious on the basis of data from clinical trials. But Dr Healy believes that there are serious problems with the reporting of side-effects in these trials, and that this has allowed drugs to be handed out to millions around the globe without their true risks being understood.

Volunteers taking part in the early trials were never asked whether they experienced any suicidal feelings or the restless agitation which can be the precursor of a suicide attempt. If patients in later trials said they felt suicidal, it was recorded as part of their depression.

Dr Healey has written to the Medicines Control Agency, which licences medicines in the UK, expressing his concern and pointing out that he believes patients who today become suicidal on SSRIs are in a state of "legal jeopardy".

Firms are using data from trials that were not designed to look at suicidality to prove that their drugs could not have caused it. Until the system for reporting side-effects is changed, he questions whether anybody should take part in clinical trials.

The new study's findings have emerged at a time of acute embarrassment for Eli Lilly. Its patent on Prozac (fluoxetine), is soon to expire, but it recently bought the licence for a second version of the drug, called R-fluoxetine. The patent for the new drug, it has just been revealed in the US, states that R-fluoxetine is improvement on Prozac specifically as it is less likely to cause "suicidal thoughts and self-mutilation".

Eli Lilly argues that the patent was filed by the American scientist Martin Teicher and the company Sepracor which devised the new drug.

Mr Teicher, in 1990, was the first to warn that patients on Prozac were becoming suicidal, but Eli Lilly has always dismissed his study on the basis that those patients were suffering chronic depression.

Dr Healy, the UK's leading historian of antidepressant medication who has given evidence against Lilly in litigation in the US, has frequently taken issue with the major study commissioned by the company to persuade the US Food and Drugs Administration that Prozac carried no suicide risk.

Dr Healy has argued there has never been a prospective study and that the retrospective 1991 Beasley study, as it is known, included only a small selection of the trials that had taken place on Prozac.

An internal memo released by Eli Lilly during recent litigation appears to support Healy's argument.

In one of a series of memos, dated August 27, 1990, a UK-based clinician tells Eli Lilly management in Indianapolis that critics will be suspicious of the fact that not all the trials were included and concludes that it gives "the impression that the question of whether fluoxetine provokes suicidal thoughts or not has not been properly considered."

'Killing herself appeared irresistible'

Case A: 30-year-old woman
After a few days on sertraline, she experienced agitation and anxiety, racing thoughts and restlessness, says the study. "Over the first weekend she had a nightmare about having her throat slit so that it gaped open and she imagined she bled to death in the bed." Other versions of the nightmare recurred during the next two nights.

At the start of week two, she remained restless, withdrawn and preoccupied. By Wednesday she was tearful and did not seem herself. "She described swings of emotion, with misery predominating but she was not depressed.

"She was advised to stop taking the drug and agreed to do so. She did not stop. In retrospect, it was almost as if she could not stop herself from taking the tablets."

On Thursday, the study monitors stopped her medication but the effects persisted. "That night she was seriously suicidal... On the Friday she telephoned early in the morning, distressed and tearful after the previous night. Her conversation was garbled. She described almost going out and killing herself."

She described feeling hopeless and alone and becoming obsessed with the idea of throwing herself under a car or perhaps a train.

"This clear thought appeared irresistible and its appearance seemed to put an end to the anxiety. It was trance-like and only broken by a telephone call, which came when she was about to act on the basis of this idea." She remains very disturbed by what happened.

Case B: 28-year-old woman
Within a few days she noticed she had become snappy and more assertive but she was liable to mood swings from cheerfulness to withdrawal. She also reported feeling restless.

She described finding herself in a state where she did not think through the consequences of what she did or said. She did not appear to feel afraid.

Driving home in a car with her mother, she saw a group of teenage boys beside the road who were making obscene gestures. She stopped the car in the middle of moving traffic, went over to them and grabbed one of them, telling him if he did anything like that again she would 'deck' him." Her mother reported that she was extremely frightened.

On two consecutive nights, "while awake or lucidly dreaming" she spent a long period lying in her bed fantasising about hanging herself from a beam across the bedroom ceiling.

She was aware that these thoughts were accompanied by an abnormal lack of concern as to whether her partner, mother or any others might find her.

She is not aware of having comparable thoughts before. The reason she did nothing, she explained afterwards, was because she was a coward and had a vestigial concern about being found by her son. The episode repeated itself the following night.

"There was a strong feeling that while on the drug that in some way she was being controlled and that suicide might happen."
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:16 pm

magma wrote:Plenty happen without SSRI being necessary though. Brehvik wasn't on anti-depressants, was he? I don't think the Columbine kids were? Not sure, I must admit. Thomas Hamilton that committed our last big one, Dunblane wasn't on meds as far as I know.

I lean to thinking that people with minds able to do this sort of thing are just more likely to be experimenting with certain medications to 'control' the symptoms they experience every day - however 'unofficially' - Breivik apparently took certain recreationals to make himself a better 'soldier' - people with damaged brains often gravitate towards narcotics... but that doesn't mean it was the narcotics causing the brain damage. It's a pretty natural behaviour to try and 'fix' something that doesn't seem the same as everyone around you.
To the best of my knowledge: columbine was, aurora was, v tech was, newton was...
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:27 pm

I pointed out some time ago how many shooting incidents involved people who had been taking these suspect pills. Patrick Purdy, culprit of the 1989 Cleveland school shooting, and Jeff Weise, culprit of the 2005 Red Lake High School shootings, had been taking ‘antidepressants’.
So had Michael McDermott, culprit of the 2000 Wakefield massacre in Massachusetts. So had Kip Kinkel, responsible for a 1998 murder spree in Oregon. So had John Hinckley, who tried to murder President Ronald Reagan in 1981. They were also found in the cabin of the ‘Unabomber’ Ted Kaczynski, of whom more later.
Not citing the source because it is impeachable. :)
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by magma » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:36 pm

I still don't get where the causality comes from. Depressed people get more suicidal thoughts over time... that's pretty logical. Depressed people who don't seek help see an increase in suicidal thoughts, those that get unsuccessful help see an increase in suicidal thoughts. Plenty of people didn't need meds to commit their atrocity.

I'm not a great fan of Prozac, or most heavily prescribed brain meds tbh, but there seems to be a lot of conclusion jumping going on.

In a population of hundreds of millions, anomalies will occur; there's not always a failure just because a tragedy happens - it's not always someone's fault. You will always have people who are alienated enough to want to go out in a blaze of inglory - I'm not sure you can ever perfect society enough so that 1 in 312,000,000 people isn't a bit of a wrong'n... the trick for me is to make sure that the wrong'n never gets to walk around with an AR-15... it's so much easier to take down a nutjob with a knife.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/540387.stm
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Re: Is depression a disease, and how should we treat it?

Post by nowaysj » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:55 pm

magma wrote:I still don't get where the causality comes from.
Honestly?
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