#Occupywallstreet >

[Kodachrome]

Just wanted to spark some conversation about this.

[Turnipish_Thoughts]

Long live anonymous! we are the 99%. Truly interesting times. Truly.

[jugo]

http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=220

[//thread merged]

[noam]

But these morally corrupt people, the IB's, do you not feel if you block one avenue they will simply try and find a new one? Or are you hoping they'll give up out of frustration? Or have a change of heart?

no he's clearly saying that for them to operate they will have a limited scope of what they CAN do.

by regulating what actions you CAN do you remove 'other avenues' of operation by making anything outside of those rules clearly illegal

then you just have to have an independant judiciary which regulates this closely and without influence

[kidshuffle]

[AllNightDayDream]

no he's clearly saying that for them to operate they will have a limited scope of what they CAN do.

Case in point, Glass-Steagall (for the USA, anyway)

[Kodachrome]

[magma]

But these morally corrupt people, the IB's, do you not feel if you block one avenue they will simply try and find a new one? Or are you hoping they'll give up out of frustration? Or have a change of heart?

no he's clearly saying that for them to operate they will have a limited scope of what they CAN do.

by regulating what actions you CAN do you remove 'other avenues' of operation by making anything outside of those rules clearly illegal

then you just have to have an independant judiciary which regulates this closely and without influence

Yep, this.

IBs aren't "morally corrupt" organisations, that's unfair. For a start, I wouldn't work for one if I thought they were. They are organisations directed by people who's sole interest is money though and the bigger the disconnect between traders and the real people who hold the money/debt they're gambling with the more they feel it's ok to make dangerous bets with people's futures.

In order to keep them in line, governments must introduce strict regulations explicitly stating the mechanisms that are allowed to be used, as is the case within domestic banking... this will be fought by IBs and Hedge Funds (and rich people who make massive profits from them) because it'll mean it's much harder to make "casino" profits - though it would also, over time, increase the quality of traders in IBs who are notoriously hit-and-miss at the moment (as demonstrated by the vast majority's inability to spot impending disaster even though switched-on traders like Steve Eisman had been warning for years). It might cause some short term pain, but it's the only realistic long term solution.

Sticking with the status quo out of some "it won't make any difference anyway" apathy is difficult to understand. Investment banking is necessary for capitalism to flourish, especially in an evermore globalised world thanks to the Internet - it must be controlled so that it can no longer pull in the opposite direction of the majority.

[matt5120]

sorry if you've already spoken about it earlier in the thread, but what kind of work do you do in IB? I'm a second year econ/commerce undergrad (finance major), trying to get an internship at JP Morgan at the end of the year. I'm always interested to hear from people in the field.

[magma]

sorry if you've already spoken about it earlier in the thread, but what kind of work do you do in IB? I'm a second year econ/commerce undergrad (finance major), trying to get an internship at JP Morgan at the end of the year. I'm always interested to hear from people in the field.

I'm a techy, so I don't get involved in the financey/exciting side of the business, just get preached to about it every couple of months (you have to 'know the industry' to do anything here apparently) - spend my days sweeping the runway for the Top Guns to take flight! (that's how they'd like me to describe it, I'm sure)



(I've worked at a few, but never JP Morgan btw... if you're a permie there they'll look after you very well, though. They are stnuc to everyone else, mind... I mean, it's better than telling your mates you work for Goldman Sachs, but not too far off )

[tyger]

When the oil runs out, and that 1% is hovering over us in their spaceships

heh ... though that is not an easy way out, even for the 1%, if we really make our planet uninhabitable: there are a few things to sort out before spaceships could keep going indefinitely without support from earth, and that means massive engineering projects with huge lead times, which haven't been started yet - it might even be less effort to fix this planet! ... it would also be so SO FUCKING EXPENSIVE that it would be a lot less than 1% who could afford to buy places on the spaceships (there would also of course be place for some of the techies needed to make it work).

if it truly was 50 years till ALL the oil runs out we'd be completely fucked and i reckon the world would be looking very different

as it is, from speaking to a few people involved in oil the estimate from inside is about 150-200years

my guess is also that most oil companies are privately throwing heaps of cash into idea's for green energy, simply so they have back up plans for once the oil really does run out

if you were a business no matter how cold and calculating you are it doesn't mean you're stupid, its in multi-national oil corporations future interests to both invest in and ensure the the future of the next generation of energy supplies

it'd be like a farmer harvesting his crops to sell for a fortune and deciding its bad business practice to plant any more seeds...

oil doesn't run out, production just declines further and further, while the price continues to rise. world oil production is probably already just past its peak, though natural gas isn't yet. this is the same process already observed for individual oil fields, or countries.

it may be true that, at the current rate of production, oil reserves would run out in 50 years, but there is no way that the current rate of production can be maintained for that long.

whether of not oil companies are stupid (many big companies are run by executives whose thinking is far too short term, and energy does call for much longer-term thinking), there is no known energy source which is as cheap and abundant and oil and gas are (or have been). most of the adjustment has to be made by using less energy to do the same things, though there is clearly some scope for greater alternative energy production.

whether we are adjusting fast enough is a big question.

[pompende]

IBs aren't "morally corrupt" organisations, that's unfair.

they didn't do it on porpoise????













sorry i think that pun is really really really funny

[jugo]

[danny_scrilla]

[Intended Malice]

sorry if you've already spoken about it earlier in the thread, but what kind of work do you do in IB? I'm a second year econ/commerce undergrad (finance major), trying to get an internship at JP Morgan at the end of the year. I'm always interested to hear from people in the field.

I'm a techy, so I don't get involved in the financey/exciting side of the business, just get preached to about it every couple of months (you have to 'know the industry' to do anything here apparently) - spend my days sweeping the runway for the Top Guns to take flight! (that's how they'd like me to describe it, I'm sure)



(I've worked at a few, but never JP Morgan btw... if you're a permie there they'll look after you very well, though. They are stnuc to everyone else, mind... I mean, it's better than telling your mates you work for Goldman Sachs, but not too far off )

I had written a 1000+ word diatribe after having read this, but I realized that would get me no where... so rather than provide some minutely self-serving rant I'd rather compel you to see what lies behind it all; the State! It not only condones the wanton acts of corruption, they purposely implement them--then profit with War domestic and abroad to suppress any deviation from their true paymasters: Oligarchs that head Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citi Bank, Deutsche Bank, Credit Suise et al. Hypocrisy is what reins is in Totalitarian-Fascist State's through out the World and the Rule of Law of is merely an illusion repeated enough times to establish paradoxical truth (doublethink); its just as those HFT dregs are erroneously referred to as financial institutions, if anyone, and I mean ANYONE sincerely believes they serve to allocate and direct Capital to viable investments really needs to have only only their intelligence and scruples questioned but their very sanity as well.

[magma]

sorry if you've already spoken about it earlier in the thread, but what kind of work do you do in IB? I'm a second year econ/commerce undergrad (finance major), trying to get an internship at JP Morgan at the end of the year. I'm always interested to hear from people in the field.

I'm a techy, so I don't get involved in the financey/exciting side of the business, just get preached to about it every couple of months (you have to 'know the industry' to do anything here apparently) - spend my days sweeping the runway for the Top Guns to take flight! (that's how they'd like me to describe it, I'm sure)



(I've worked at a few, but never JP Morgan btw... if you're a permie there they'll look after you very well, though. They are stnuc to everyone else, mind... I mean, it's better than telling your mates you work for Goldman Sachs, but not too far off )

I had written a 1000+ word diatribe after having read this, but I realized that would get me no where... so rather than provide some minutely self-serving rant I'd rather compel you to see what lies behind it all; the State! It not only condones the wanton acts of corruption, they purposely implement them--then profit with War domestic and abroad to suppress and deviation from their true paymasters: Oligarchs that head Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Citi Bank, Deutsche Bank, Credit Suise et al. Hypocrisy is what reins is in Totalitarian-Fascist State's through out the World and the Rule of Law of is merely an illusion repeated enough times to establish paradoxical truth (doublethink); its just as those HFT dregs are erroneously referred to as financial institutions, if anyone, and I mean ANYONE sincerely believes they serve to allocate and direct Capital to viable investments really needs to have only only their intelligence and scruples questioned but their very sanity as well.

All well and good, but you try and start a small business venture without a loan or a rich daddy.. see how far you get. Banking is necessary for the world... corrupt banking isn't. We need to clean up, not scrap the system... refusing to engage with the industry only strengthens the idea that we're all 'separate' and so can act without regard for each other... NO... engage with bankers, set up camp outside the offices, invade their drinking holes with popular debate... it's SO much harder to screw people over if you have to make eye contact with them.

Society will win if society believes in itself.

Also, you might want to read my posts before assuming I'm the correct target for your diatribes... I'd be surprised if you found any of my views particularly offensive. Don't hate, conversate.

[Intended Malice]

I had 3 successful ones by the time I was 21, most carrying 200% profit margins after expenses--they became more than adequate to pay for my University, living standard and lifestyle costs. All of the business models became obsolete and unprofitable because of the State, both directly and indirectly. I invested in myself through years of working jobs I hated, amassing profits from previous short term projects and savings. I then proceeded to network within my targeted demographics/communities to capitalize on my desired Market and established enough Trust to be provided working capital and investment, I then developed one of my mantras: if it isn't profitable from day one, you are doing it wrong! Debt isn't the answer to overcome shortcomings within your execution, or lack of foresight.

Right... because Central Banks the World over are intrinsic to its existence, and well being. Take a look at that video, I hardly think some paid thug in a suit pounding a pleb in Manhattan or Cairo is going to make Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Diamon or Blythe Masters lose a fucking second of sleep; your naivety reflects the crux of the problem: a lack of an education. Primarily in History, any institution that is allowed to participate in counterfeiting and extortion (Global fiat monetary system and Fractional Reserve Banking) and is still capable to present itself as a credible institution amongst the indoctrinated masses has nothing to worry about. This isn't new and they all fail for the every same reason.

[magma]

It is possible to start businesses without capital, sure. It's a bit difficult to buy a Tractor, Restaurant or a CNC Machine without a loan though. Proper business needs loans to survive - what the world doesn't need are loans that are impossible to repay.

If you're going to spout the usual keyboard warrior standard spiel that we've had a thousand times from Alien Pimp (long since sent into the long grass), then I'll politely bow out... got bored of that when I was a teenager.

Scrapping the entire system might be ideologically wonderful, but it's not practical. I'm about solutions that can actually be made to happen.

[pkay]

Society will win if society believes in itself.

That's a very Disney ending.

We're at a very roman empire point in our existence where we believe we can mold consequences to our will and people see absolutely no problems with this. There's a certain amount of literal reaction that needs to occur to let natural consumerism occur. This fruit gives me the shits, i need to stop eating this fruit kind of reaction. But as modern humans we complicate things to a point of what is morally acceptable and what we 'deserve' and what is 'fair' so we've lost that ability to discern that doing things with bad reactions are best handled by simply not doing them.

[magma]

We're at a very roman empire point in our existence

This sort of thing cracks me up. People are so quick to assume that they'll live during the end of their own civilisation - every generation says Western Civilisation is about to grind to a halt and spit us all out... it never happens. Civilisation is globalised... it would take a meteor, nuclear war or plague to stop us now. We've been "on course to end up like the Roman Empire" since before Guido Fawkes tried to blow up King James.

The jury's also pretty out on the fall of the Roman Empire. I don't know what you've read on the subject, but I'd recommend Peter Heather's book. A lot of people would posit that their eventual economic and emotional fall (lots of people just... gave up) was largely down to the empire getting bigger than its communication networks could cope with (far flung territories started ceding control to more local warlords and tribes, more local ones fought for or bought their independence) - this is definitely not something we have a problem with here as our conversation proves. Whatever caused it... we don't even have a proper timeline of events - comparisons to today's situations are almost always without any real foundation.

Romans also didn't have the temptation of 100% loans on depreciating static-chariots housing families of six either (people of that class were effectively slaves, afterall). When the Roman Empire suffered from a "Credit Crunch" it was caused by massive foreign invasion. They recovered from it, too. It wasn't economics alone that caused their demise, whatever it was.

Let's keep ourselves relevant...

Again, I'd love for everyone to wake up tomorrow and say "Right, I don't need a carrot or stick, I'm just gonna ACT RIGHT", but it won't happen. People smoke cigarettes, drive SUVs, cheat on the love of their life and eat saturated fats... people can't be trusted to think with their logical brains all the time. When it matters most, people must be shepherded into making the correct decisions through regulation.