Ferguson riots

[nowaysj]

do u not believe that systematic oppression that forces a lot of people people to live these ways?

Dangerous word choice. (Imagine me for a [dsf] dad, my daughter is becoming so freaking articulate, AND sick of me.)

There are a lot of poor people in this country, and this type of social structure doesn't appear to be the universal response to these conditions. I'll refer you to prior waves of poor European immigrants/indentured servants, Asian immigrants, and more recently Latino immigrants to this country, who often occupy a lower social tier than black people. Rather than a child with an absent father, a drug addicted/drunk mother, being raised by a grandmother, you'll find 3 fathers in the home, one for each of the families that live in the same house.

OG's asking me about political philosophy, but I don't see it as dispositive, any political system can lead to widespread happiness and strength, or any system can lead to widespread suffering. What is dispositive, in my analysis, is the moral character of the people. If you have a nation of community minded people, committed to family unity, who are ethical, and moral, you can put a communist system over them, a capitalist system, a socialist system, an anarchist system, whatever, you'll have a happy, prosperous people. Generally speaking, of course, there are some foibles with that statement, but any group of people who are personally responsible and community minded, you're going to have good outcomes, imo.

But yeah, the black community in the US has been beset, and actually methodically attacked on almost every front, and the family has been a central target. So you have the beast system which destroys families, that is the background, and then over that you have specific coordinated attacks, and the result is the current state of affairs, where kids like Martin and Brown are fucking (rightly) gunned down. Don't think that I'm sitting here in my sunny cali dream state, happy over these young men being killed. Fuck, fuck, fuck that. It is horrible, it is terrible, there is no amount of adjectives to describe the tragedy, the loss. I try to joke around and stay light, because if you actually dwell on it, it is overwhelming. BUT, EPIC BUT, to really address these issues, to make any kind of progress away from these tragedies (and daily tragedies way too numerous to name) we have to get real. We have to recognize these events as pieces of a larger agenda.

[DrGatineau]

Too much here to reply to it all, but here are a few things:

1. you basically ignored the content of the links and focused on the words in the hyperlink itself. classic red herring.

2. i don't think the police should carry guns. i think the european model is just fine.

3. your beliefs on race (although i didn't peruse the thousands of words you wrote since my last post, so i could be misinterpreting them) are scientifically proven to be wrong.

4. pictures of black people giving the middle finger? next thing you're gonna tell me there's a picture of Trayvon Brown out there holding up a westside sign. Oh no! you could find countless pictures of white kids holding up the same signs (including probably most of the kids on dsf) no one would think twice about it.

5. trying to paint my beliefs with such a broad and imprecise brush is not productive to the conversation and serves no purpose. you have me all wrong brother.



authoritarianism/anti-authoritarianism aside, you seem to have grown significantly more socially conservative since the last time you talked about these topics. that was the purpose of my last post

[DrGatineau]

Also are you really trying to cast doubt on the reliability of Pew Research?

If we can't agree on basic facts, then I don't see how we can ever have a productive conversation that leads to a greater understanding. You cast doubt on literally every source that even slightly contradicts your opinion. In fact, I've never seen you accept a single source as reliable.

And you are still yet to provide one SINGLE source that you consider reliable. What facts do you believe in NWJ? I love having a discourse with you and everyone on dsf, but I don't think this conversation will ever be productive unless you agree to live in an empirical world and stop denying every fact that is put out there.

[test_recordings]

I have needed and not had, as well as used a hand gun in self defense. Trust me, needing and not having is a real downer.

And if you refer to readily available information, crime rates plummet where citizens are allowed to carry, and inversely, where gun control is the strictest, crime rates explode.

I agree though, having to maintain a defensive posture in the public space is for the fucking birds, dude. I honestly just want to wear a speedo and walk around giving people hugs.

If it's so readily available please post some, then we can match it to other things like GDP per capita and Gini coefficients.

[DrGatineau]

Yeah that would be one of the facts ^

I believe NWJ is referring to the John Lott studies from the early 90s, which have been WIDELY discredited. The author himself even denounced it iirc.

[OGLemon]

What would be the one best, most succinct, most realistic, most implementable (given natural human character and the damning laws of thermodynamics) treatise on the subject?

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... -evolution
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... toric-role
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... t-of-bread
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/petr-kropotkin
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/michail-bakunin
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/emma-goldman

The basics

[nowaysj]

Here we go again, do you hear the knuckles cracking?

1. you basically ignored the content of the links and focused on the words in the hyperlink itself. classic red herring.

Nooooo, I didn't ignore the content of the links. But you are right, I focused on the words, an admittedly damnable trait. You suggested a couple of things, one that being highly educated and having a daughter has made ME identify with the Republican party. Unfortunately for your position, I don't identify with the Republican party. Republicans as a whole are a bunch of greedy, lying, cheating, deceiving, murderous lot of scoundrels, many of whom should be in prison. I don't identify with Republicans. Further, I didn't address the Pew study because it doesn't apply to me, because, again, I don't identify with the Republican party. It is an interesting notion, and there is even probably some degree of truth there.

Secondly, you suggested that having a daughter has made me conservative, but again, dwelling on the actual meaning of the words you used, I am not conservative, I don't hold conservative ideals, in fact, I'm fairly liberal. Having a daughter didn't make me liberal, either. I've been liberal for most of my life, however I've never been dogmatic, I generally see ideology as a barrier. I try to keep everything I do based on realistic circumstances and outcomes. Recent circumstances have forced me to address some of these issues more directly, whereas in the past I was more self involved pursuing my economic, romantic, and aesthetic interests.

3. your beliefs on race (although i didn't peruse the thousands of words you wrote since my last post, so i could be misinterpreting them) are scientifically proven to be wrong.

Most importantly, they are proven by my personal experience, which is of paramount importance to me. I have also read scientific information that confirms the notions I've arrived at. I'm not interested in engaging you in a debate about this as your notions about race, don't really affect me. Some beliefs you hold do affect me, and on those issues I have engaged. Further, you hold beliefs that I believe are dangerous to yourself and your loved ones, and on those I engage a bit, but, again, I'm one of those liberal people, so I am okay with you drawing your own conclusions so long as the consequences of those conclusions don't affect me.

As an example, you yourself, and people like you are working to take my right and ability to defend my family. That is something that is of paramount importance to me, and it is something I take very seriously. I take great offense when people try to limit my freedom, especially when those people's ideas are based around fantasy, and are not born out by experience or provable facts.

4. pictures of black people giving the middle finger? next thing you're gonna tell me there's a picture of Trayvon Brown out there holding up a westside sign. Oh no! you could find countless pictures of white kids holding up the same signs (including probably most of the kids on dsf) no one would think twice about it.

Lol, Trayvon Brown, good one. I'm going to try to keep this simple for you, if the black family unit was stronger, children raised in that unit would not susceptible to the ideals expressed in cultural products pushed by the likes of Chief Keef. Many black young men internalize the morality and modalities expressed by these types of artists, which in my estimation is the actual cause of death in these publicized instances, and has been central in the decimation of the black family and the black community. Specifically in Keef's case, no father, mother was a child, he was raised by a grandmother until finally taken by the state, who himself then has created a child whom he neglects, all the while using/dealing drugs, murdering, attempting to kill police officers, you know, gangsta shit. This is exactly the kind of cultural virus Interscope has always been associated with.

5. trying to paint my beliefs with such a broad and imprecise brush is not productive to the conversation and serves no purpose. you have me all wrong brother.

Briefly, how am I imprecisely painting your beliefs?

you seem to have grown significantly more socially conservative since the last time you talked about these topics. that was the purpose of my last post

Well what do you consider socially conservative? And how am I that?

[nowaysj]

What would be the one best, most succinct, most realistic, most implementable (given natural human character and the damning laws of thermodynamics) treatise on the subject?

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... -evolution
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... toric-role
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ ... t-of-bread
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/petr-kropotkin
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/michail-bakunin
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/authors/emma-goldman

The basics

Lol, ONE!

[OGLemon]

[DrGatineau]

[+] Spoiler

Here we go again, do you hear the knuckles cracking?

1. you basically ignored the content of the links and focused on the words in the hyperlink itself. classic red herring.

Nooooo, I didn't ignore the content of the links. But you are right, I focused on the words, an admittedly damnable trait. You suggested a couple of things, one that being highly educated and having a daughter has made ME identify with the Republican party. Unfortunately for your position, I don't identify with the Republican party. Republicans as a whole are a bunch of greedy, lying, cheating, deceiving, murderous lot of scoundrels, many of whom should be in prison. I don't identify with Republicans. Further, I didn't address the Pew study because it doesn't apply to me, because, again, I don't identify with the Republican party. It is an interesting notion, and there is even probably some degree of truth there.

I've been liberal for most of my life, however I've never been dogmatic, I generally see ideology as a barrier. I try to keep everything I do based on realistic circumstances and outcomes.

again you're focusing on words, not ideas. the point is not party affiliation, it's ideology. fuck the word in the hyperlink, read between the lines man.

[+] Spoiler

3. your beliefs on race (although i didn't peruse the thousands of words you wrote since my last post, so i could be misinterpreting them) are scientifically proven to be wrong.

As an example, you yourself, and people like you are working to take my right and ability to defend my family. That is something that is of paramount importance to me, and it is something I take very seriously. I take great offense when people try to limit my freedom, especially when those people's ideas are based around fantasy, and are not born out by experience or provable facts.

bullshit - again, the european model - no guns -> less violent crime. the actual facts (not those fabricated by the NRA and John Lott) that studies on gun control have found are that people who own guns are significantly more likely to die (often at their owns hands) from a gunshot wound (controlling for the crime rate in their area, etc).

[+] Spoiler

4. pictures of black people giving the middle finger? next thing you're gonna tell me there's a picture of Trayvon Brown out there holding up a westside sign. Oh no! you could find countless pictures of white kids holding up the same signs (including probably most of the kids on dsf) no one would think twice about it.

Lol, Trayvon Brown, good one. I'm going to try to keep this simple for you, if the black family unit was stronger, children raised in that unit would not susceptible to the ideals expressed in cultural products pushed by the likes of Chief Keef. Many black young men internalize the morality and modalities expressed by these types of artists, which in my estimation is the actual cause of death in these publicized instances, and has been central in the decimation of the black family and the black community. Specifically in Keef's case, no father, mother was a child, he was raised by a grandmother until finally taken by the state, who himself then has created a child whom he neglects, all the while using/dealing drugs, murdering, attempting to kill police officers, you know, gangsta shit. This is exactly the kind of cultural virus Interscope has always been associated with.

You completely ignored my point, which was that posting pictures of TB giving the middle finger or making gang signs with his hand is pointless because you could find plenty of pictures of white people doing gang signs and everyone would laugh it off as just a joke. There are dozens of articles on the internet showing dozens of pictures of white people making gang signs and making this exact point.

[+] Spoiler

5. trying to paint my beliefs with such a broad and imprecise brush is not productive to the conversation and serves no purpose. you have me all wrong brother.

Briefly, how am I imprecisely painting your beliefs?

[+] Spoiler

Nwj conservative. This is also rich. From my perspective you (and your homies) are conservative. You accept information from quasi-governmental media outlets without critical thought. You believe that government is the absolute authority, knows what is best for individuals and society as a whole. You believe in a governmental monopoly of force, as well as other governmentally controlled monopolies. You appear to me as the conservative. I believe in greater personal freedom for individuals, businesses, and society as a whole. I am the liberal, you are the conservative.

I know you think these ideas are born of racism and hatred, as you've been trained to believe that. But they are not. They are conclusions based upon a lifetime's honest personal observation.

[+] Spoiler

you seem to have grown significantly more socially conservative since the last time you talked about these topics. that was the purpose of my last post

Well what do you consider socially conservative? And how am I that?[/quote]

-obsession with marriage.

-oversimplifying racial issues, eg, arguing that black people spend money on the wrong things.

-credulity when it comes to accepting poorly conducted research that confirms your own beliefs yet discarding solid research that contradicts them

-unwavering defense of authoritarian police state

-unwavering defense of right to own firearms

of that list you will probably ignore the first 4 and say that defending the right to own firearms is a liberal or libertarian stance because you are pro-freedom, but just cause it was written down in the constitution doesn't make it a good idea. social liberals aren't always pro-freedom in every single case.

[DrGatineau]

Also, this:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/stewart-goes ... monologue/

[nowaysj]

1. you basically ignored the content of the links and focused on the words in the hyperlink itself. classic red herring.

Nooooo, I didn't ignore the content of the links. But you are right, I focused on the words, an admittedly damnable trait. You suggested a couple of things, one that being highly educated and having a daughter has made ME identify with the Republican party. Unfortunately for your position, I don't identify with the Republican party. Republicans as a whole are a bunch of greedy, lying, cheating, deceiving, murderous lot of scoundrels, many of whom should be in prison. I don't identify with Republicans. Further, I didn't address the Pew study because it doesn't apply to me, because, again, I don't identify with the Republican party. It is an interesting notion, and there is even probably some degree of truth there.

I've been liberal for most of my life, however I've never been dogmatic, I generally see ideology as a barrier. I try to keep everything I do based on realistic circumstances and outcomes.

again you're focusing on words, not ideas. the point is not party affiliation, it's ideology. fuck the word in the hyperlink, read between the lines man.

Well, I didn't read the study, I read the article about he study, and the article said that highly educated and affluent people with daughters identified with the Republican party. I don't identify with the Republican party, I don't identify with their platform, I don't identify with their ideology, I don't identify with Republican individuals. I am not certain you can guess what it is or why it is people are identifying with that party. Maybe having a daughter makes people stupider, I don't know. I don't know what more you want me to say. I could pretend like I do, if it would help you in some way.

3. your beliefs on race (although i didn't peruse the thousands of words you wrote since my last post, so i could be misinterpreting them) are scientifically proven to be wrong.

As an example, you yourself, and people like you are working to take my right and ability to defend my family. That is something that is of paramount importance to me, and it is something I take very seriously. I take great offense when people try to limit my freedom, especially when those people's ideas are based around fantasy, and are not born out by experience or provable facts.

bullshit - again, the european model - no guns -> less violent crime. the actual facts (not those fabricated by the NRA and John Lott) that studies on gun control have found are that people who own guns are significantly more likely to die (often at their owns hands) from a gunshot wound (controlling for the crime rate in their area, etc).

The European model? You mean the model that created such political and military instability as to necessitate the two deadliest wars the planet has ever seen? As well a casting a good portion of the content into abject totalitarianism where tens of millions of citizens were left defenseless to be killed by the state? You go lick some boots and beg for your life, I'm not up for it.

The Swiss model, where firearms have been required by law in every man's home, yet has a very low rate of violent crime and gun violence?

Lott's work has not been successfully refuted (he has successfully sued for defamation), and the numbers themselves don't lie. Rates of violent crime rose in England and Australia recently after greater gun regulation. England's violent crime rate is between 8 to 10 TIMES higher than that in the US. I might suggest that you move to the UK, you sound like perfect victim.

For brevity cause I've got a daughter turning me into a Republican, you can peruse these recycled and rehashed sources:

Kleck, Point Blank.
Colin Greenwood, Chief Inspector of West Yorkshire Constabulary, Firearms Control: A Study of Armed Crime and Firearms Control in England and Wales (1972).
David Kopel, The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies (1992).
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce crime," USA Today (May 9, 2002).
Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley, "Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur," The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).
Gary A. Mauser, "The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales," Public Policy Sources (The Fraser Institute, November 2003).
"Handgun crime 'up' despite ban," BBC News Online (July 16, 2001) at http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/uk/ne ... 440764.stm.
Crime rising in Japan, while arrests at record low: police," AFP News (August 3, 2001).
"A crime wave alarms Japan, once gun-free," The Philadelphia Inquirer, 11 July 1992.
"Most Crime Worse in England Than US, Study Says," Reuters (October 11, 1998).
Bureau of Justice Statistics, Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96 (October 1998).
John van Kesteren, Pat Mayhew and Paul Nieuwbeerta, "Criminal Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Courtries: Key findings from the 2000 International Crime Victims Survey," (2000).
Ian Henry and Tim Reid, "Crime figures a sham, say police," The Electronic Telegraph (April 1, 1996).
Tim Reid, "Police are accused of fiddling crime data," The Electronic Telegraph (May 4, 1997).
John Steele, "Police figures under-record offences by 20 percent," The Electronic Telegraph (July 13, 2000).
Dave Kopel, Dr. Paul Gallant and Dr. Joanne Eisen, "Britain: From Bad to Worse," NewsMax.com (March 22, 2001).

And so much more.

My wife and I are alive because I had a handgun, your point is moot, I have a windmill in my beard. My wife and I very nearly died because I didn't have a handgun on another occasion. And recently, a situation nearly turned very hairy because I didn't have a handgun, it put me and my daughter at great risk, and the only reason I wasn't carrying is because of fear of prosecution. That literally makes me sick to my stomach.

I'm very sorry most of the gun killings in the US are suicide and gang shootings. Suicide is consensual, and gang shootings and murders are also largely consensual. I'm telling you right now that you will not convince me that governments and criminals should be the only ones with guns. You're literally going to have to pry it from my cold dead hands.

4. pictures of black people giving the middle finger? next thing you're gonna tell me there's a picture of Trayvon Brown out there holding up a westside sign. Oh no! you could find countless pictures of white kids holding up the same signs (including probably most of the kids on dsf) no one would think twice about it.

Lol, Trayvon Brown, good one. I'm going to try to keep this simple for you, if the black family unit was stronger, children raised in that unit would not susceptible to the ideals expressed in cultural products pushed by the likes of Chief Keef. Many black young men internalize the morality and modalities expressed by these types of artists, which in my estimation is the actual cause of death in these publicized instances, and has been central in the decimation of the black family and the black community. Specifically in Keef's case, no father, mother was a child, he was raised by a grandmother until finally taken by the state, who himself then has created a child whom he neglects, all the while using/dealing drugs, murdering, attempting to kill police officers, you know, gangsta shit. This is exactly the kind of cultural virus Interscope has always been associated with.

You completely ignored my point, which was that posting pictures of TB giving the middle finger or making gang signs with his hand is pointless because you could find plenty of pictures of white people doing gang signs and everyone would laugh it off as just a joke. There are dozens of articles on the internet showing dozens of pictures of white people making gang signs and making this exact point.

I didn't ignore your point. White people can make gang signs. Holy shit! They don't even do it right, anyway, though, like mc'ing. But something you have ignored twice in this recent exchange and will probably continue to ignore (I'm sorry I included pictures with that paragraph, I know of your inability to process information when visually stimulated ) is that black young men identify and buy into thug/gang culture, and this leads to profits and control for those that sell these notions, and death, degradation and poverty for those that buy into it.

Hahaha to the following:

-obsession with marriage.

Seriously dawg. I'm not obsessed with marriage. May you never be married. What I am obsessed with is children having stable homes where the transmission of humanity can occur. My daughter was born out of wedlock, and I had no intention of marrying. I'd been with my wife in a stable relationship for 10 or 11 years by that point. I had no interest in the state sanctioning my relationship. BUT there are a set of rights that attach only to men/fathers in marriage (which is disgusting, and biased), so I consented to state involvement in my private relationships. I was married by a 300 pound 4'7" female city employee with mutton chops that would put Meatloaf to shame. I think my wife and I had lunch, and then I returned to work.

-oversimplifying racial issues, eg, arguing that black people spend money on the wrong things.

No. Wrong again. If I've been anything, it has been long winded. There are many inputs to the ongoing state of black financial/moral poverty in the US. Again, you've ignored what I've written because it acknowledges black responsibility and black power, something I think you want to deny.

-credulity when it comes to accepting poorly conducted research that confirms your own beliefs yet discarding solid research that contradicts them

I'm rubber and you're glue.

-unwavering defense of authoritarian police state

PUT THE BONG DOWN! I wish I had the time to excoriate you. But you're just pushing buttons, you state worshiping mind control slave.

-unwavering defense of right to own firearms

I am unwavering. I am unwavering in the defense of my rights, and of my fellow citizen's rights. And just because my rights are enumerated in the Bill of Rights, doesn't mean that that is their source. I, and people like me, share beliefs that are stronger than your unbelief. In normal circumstances, I would let time teach you these lessons, and remain silent, but time is short. America is being destabilized, socially, morally, racially, economically, legally, and in just about every other way, and your boyish fantasies are soon going to come to an end, I'm hoping that your life doesn't accompany them.

Best of luck, brother.

[nousd]

9 year old girl kills instructor
teaching her how to use an Uzi machine pistol

you've got to be kiddin' Amerika

no justification
none

[Riddles]

9 year old girl kills instructor
teaching her how to use an Uzi machine pistol

you've got to be kiddin' Amerika

no justification
none

completely different discussion tbh, and the instructor killed himself by allowing a 9 year old girl with no practice to fire one of the most difficult guns to control next to his head.

[nousd]

no justification
none

[bennyfroobs]

fucking helll r u kidding me did tha actually hapen lol

[bennyfroobs]

[DrGatineau]

Again, just too much stuff to reply to everything, but a few points:

1. Yes the European model of gun control, and of course by that I'm referring to the events that occurred 100 years ago that caused 2 world wars! Fantastic red herring. If the French were armed with pistols, that would have made no difference. Same reason Cliven Bundy and his friends will never overthrow the US government.

No, I'm talking about the European model which has caused the UK to have the lowest murder rate among OECD countries (we are number 32 out of 36, quite an accomplishment - for the NRA that is). As opposed to America's gun laws, which have put us right between Niger and Yemen in terms of murders per capita, and right between Colombia and Pakistan in terms of total murders. We are the ninth most muderous country in the entire world. Aside from small islands and city-states, you know who's the least muderous country in the world? Iceland.

It is true that the UK has a slightly higher assault rate (and that is very, very slighty), but we still lag behind Canada, Poland, and Japan, who have stricter gun laws. But regardless, murder is obviously more important than assault.


2. John Lott's work is widely accepted to be a load of horse shit. There is nothing to argue about here. Every person that I've seen or read talking about him or his work thinks it's a load of horse shit. His lawsuit had nothing to do with his studies, which are widely labeled "junk science" and said to have "fatal methodological flaws".

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/21/why_is_ ... john_lott/

Lott sued over claims that he had paid the University of Chicago Press to publish his studies, not anything about the studies themselves, which ARE junk science.


3. "I'm telling you right now that you will not convince me that governments and criminals should be the only ones with guns." ....... I'm not arguing that at all (classic NWJ red herring) and I wouldn't try to pry anything from your hands.


4. THE EXISTENCE OF SP:MC, TOAST, TASK, N-TYPE ETC GODDAMNIT THIS IS DUBSTEPFORUM YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN THAT NWJ.


5. You have been long-winded in your discussion of racial issues, but you've still over-simplified them, finding ways to blame the victim instead of looking at systems of oppression and a history of racism that has lead to the present problems. Instead, you blame pop culture.


6. "I'm rubber and you're glue." - Except you NEVER post any sources of your own (until this most recent post where you just copy/pasted a bunch of sources you've never read from other websites)

[shnobs]

Lott's work has not been successfully refuted (he has successfully sued for defamation), and the numbers themselves don't lie. Rates of violent crime rose in England and Australia recently after greater gun regulation. England's violent crime rate is between 8 to 10 TIMES higher than that in the US. I might suggest that you move to the UK, you sound like perfect victim.

not true, misconception mostly due to difference in definition of 'violent crime'

http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/

[bennyfroobs]

ur living in a daydream if u think the uk is more violent than USA

even size for size


we beat each other up a bit but people dont really get murdered a lot. just a bit of rough and tumble