#Occupywallstreet >

[faultier]

Perhaps they didn't have a movement to get fired up about before? Perhaps there wasn't something as universally easy to get on board with as this? The anti-war movement often seems to get hijacked by anti-zionists and conspiracy theorists and can be frustrating to be part of (I've walked away from marches before because of the slogans being chanted "We are all anti war, we are all HEZBOLAH" ?!), anti-capitalist and anarchist protests often seem too fundamentalist and ill-thought-out.... but a protest demanding that capitalism be made to work for the people that fuel it? That bank bailouts shouldn't be funded by slashing public services? That bonuses be clipped and wages increased? That seems an easy one to get on board.

well, i think that's the problem most of the skeptical ones have with this movement, their objectives are so vague and undetermined that anarchists, anti-zionists and what have you, can feel entitled to join in.

i can see the reasoning behind the whole "we want this to be as democratic and opened as possible and we don't want no leader to emerge" thing, but imo there's a point where you have to define a program/realistic goals if you want to be taken seriously (and if you want to keep the more indesirable protesters at bay)

[magma]

Perhaps they didn't have a movement to get fired up about before? Perhaps there wasn't something as universally easy to get on board with as this? The anti-war movement often seems to get hijacked by anti-zionists and conspiracy theorists and can be frustrating to be part of (I've walked away from marches before because of the slogans being chanted "We are all anti war, we are all HEZBOLAH" ?!), anti-capitalist and anarchist protests often seem too fundamentalist and ill-thought-out.... but a protest demanding that capitalism be made to work for the people that fuel it? That bank bailouts shouldn't be funded by slashing public services? That bonuses be clipped and wages increased? That seems an easy one to get on board.

well, i think that's the problem most of the skeptical ones have with this movement, their objectives are so vague and undetermined that anarchists, anti-zionists and what have you, can feel entitled to join in.

i can see the reasoning behind the whole "we want this to be as democratic and opened as possible and we don't want no leader to emerge" thing, but imo there's a point where you have to define a program/realistic goals if you want to be taken seriously (and if you want to keep the more indesirable protesters at bay)

This sounds like an awful lot of assumption.

The point of consensus is that the "undesirable" ideas get voted down - everything the group "demands" must be approved by the majority present at the General Assembly - those minority voices become clearly minority voices and the majority of "sensible" people shape the policy. The "demands" of the General Assembly (I assume you've looked at the http://www.occupylsx.org page?) are incredibly reasonable - the only thing I can see to think about arguing with is supporting the Nov 30th strike... though I lean to supporting that in the face of the coalition's public sector cuts, tbh.

[faultier]

Perhaps they didn't have a movement to get fired up about before? Perhaps there wasn't something as universally easy to get on board with as this? The anti-war movement often seems to get hijacked by anti-zionists and conspiracy theorists and can be frustrating to be part of (I've walked away from marches before because of the slogans being chanted "We are all anti war, we are all HEZBOLAH" ?!), anti-capitalist and anarchist protests often seem too fundamentalist and ill-thought-out.... but a protest demanding that capitalism be made to work for the people that fuel it? That bank bailouts shouldn't be funded by slashing public services? That bonuses be clipped and wages increased? That seems an easy one to get on board.

well, i think that's the problem most of the skeptical ones have with this movement, their objectives are so vague and undetermined that anarchists, anti-zionists and what have you, can feel entitled to join in.

i can see the reasoning behind the whole "we want this to be as democratic and opened as possible and we don't want no leader to emerge" thing, but imo there's a point where you have to define a program/realistic goals if you want to be taken seriously (and if you want to keep the more indesirable protesters at bay)

This sounds like an awful lot of assumption.

The point of consensus is that the "undesirable" ideas get voted down - everything the group "demands" must be approved by the majority present at the General Assembly - those minority voices become clearly minority voices and the majority of "sensible" people shape the policy. The "demands" of the General Assembly (I assume you've looked at the http://www.occupylsx.org page?) are incredibly reasonable - the only thing I can see to think about arguing with is supporting the Nov 30th strike... though I lean to supporting that in the face of the coalition's public sector cuts, tbh.

fair enough, let's just say that for the moment i don't see this movement gaining momentum without making some compromises on the overly democratic method

[magma]

fair enough, let's just say that for the moment i don't see this movement gaining momentum without making some compromises on the overly democratic method

Either way, it'll be interesting seeing where it leads. I'm just going to go and have my lunchbreak with them.

[magma]

That was a great visit. Had a conservation with an unemployed crusty from Liverpool, a secondary school teacher and several bank employees where we all almost agreed on everything. People are being really welcoming to us suited types down there!

There was a crowd of people around a banker who was talking about slipping towards the next recession and getting really fired up about the movement.

All the noises are brilliant, I've got to say. If people suspect it's all anti-society crusties who want to turn the UK into a giant hemp farm, they should really go down and have a wander around...

[pkay]

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

Says the man picking out the single laughable picture from hundreds of on-point images.

i didn't post the picture

we also live in entirely different countries. I'm guessing you've never lived in the US for a sustained amount of time correct? I've spent time in the UK but never lived there. I vaguely understand but will be the first to admit your youth have an entirely different mindset than those in my country.

What is realistic to you is not realistic to me and likely vice versa. So please quit making assumptions about my opinion in relation to my country. I'm not talking about your country, your protesters, your starbucks, or your economy... as they are entirely different people, places, economies, and situations than in my country.

If you're out just protesting just generic greed worldwide, then dfaultuzr was right and it's time for you to start working within the confines of the political system to get a little more direct and start working on actual change instead of intrusting politicians in other countries to do it for you. Because as much as I assume my government doesn't give a fuck about me, I can 100% guarantee they don't give a fuck about what you want.

[magma]

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

Says the man picking out the single laughable picture from hundreds of on-point images.

i didn't post the picture

we also live in entirely different countries. I'm guessing you've never lived in the US for a sustained amount of time correct? I've spent time in the UK but never lived there. I vaguely understand but will be the first to admit your youth have an entirely different mindset than those in my country.

What is realistic to you is not realistic to me and likely vice versa. So please quit making assumptions about my opinion in relation to my country. I'm not talking about your country, your protesters, your starbucks, or your economy... as they are entirely different people, places, economies, and situations than in my country.

If you're out just protesting just generic greed worldwide, then dfaultuzr was right and it's time for you to start working within the confines of the political system to get a little more direct and start working on actual change instead of intrusting politicians in other countries to do it for you. Because as much as I assume my government doesn't give a fuck about me, I can 100% guarantee they don't give a fuck about what you want.

Capitalism is globalised and with the levelling power of the Internet, it will stay that way for the forseeable future. We must move forward together. My protest is directed at my government hence being situated in my capital city... but all our issues are connected because of the way the modern world is made up. Starbucks are from Seattle, but are also UK tax payers so are relevant to both our discussions.

Now is not the time to close ranks and get isolated, now is the time for the majority of people around the world to make capitalism work in their favour.

Conversation is good. Don't be afraid of it.

[pkay]

let's look for the reality instead of the hype

Says the man picking out the single laughable picture from hundreds of on-point images.

i didn't post the picture

we also live in entirely different countries. I'm guessing you've never lived in the US for a sustained amount of time correct? I've spent time in the UK but never lived there. I vaguely understand but will be the first to admit your youth have an entirely different mindset than those in my country.

What is realistic to you is not realistic to me and likely vice versa. So please quit making assumptions about my opinion in relation to my country. I'm not talking about your country, your protesters, your starbucks, or your economy... as they are entirely different people, places, economies, and situations than in my country.

If you're out just protesting just generic greed worldwide, then dfaultuzr was right and it's time for you to start working within the confines of the political system to get a little more direct and start working on actual change instead of intrusting politicians in other countries to do it for you. Because as much as I assume my government doesn't give a fuck about me, I can 100% guarantee they don't give a fuck about what you want.

Capitalism is globalised and with the levelling power of the Internet, it will stay that way for the forseeable future. We must move forward together. My protest is directed at my government hence being situated in my capital city... but all our issues are connected because of the way the modern world is made up. Starbucks are from Seattle, but are also UK tax payers so are relevant to both our discussions.

Now is not the time to close ranks and get isolated, now is the time for the majority of people around the world to make capitalism work in their favour.

Conversation is good. Don't be afraid of it.

Capitalism in the US is not the same as in your country agreed?

I agree a lot with what dfaultuzr was saying. The tea party is generally full of idiots but they managed to effect our country by becoming political and getting very involved. I'd likely change my tune a lot if I saw these protesters get involved on that level and start effecting actual change on the government instead of intrusting our existing politicians to make change. Reason once again being stuff like Dodd-Frank act which would have inacted some level of reform on wall street but ultimately was shit all over by the republican party and even some members of the democrats.

[magma]

Capitalism in the US is not the same as in your country agreed?

It has an awful lot in common. Lots of the same companies represented, masses of the same products, the same recent reliance upon selling unsuitable loans to people who don't know better, the same massive inequality between shareholders and workers remuneration.

The problems exist to differing degrees, but they're not different problems. If the world's people band together to make this a global struggle, all our governments will be forced to make changes. There is much greater power in numbers, as we've already seen from the protest spreading from Madrid to Wall St. in the first place.

[pkay]

here is what the Dodd-Frank Act would have done until our government stalled it, shat all over it, and wiped their ass with it.

http://www.marketsreformwiki.com/mktref ... -Frank_Act

[magma]

Are you trying to say you hate your government so much you won't protest against them?

Astounding. You should move to China!

I really hope the majority are less cynical and more energetic than you. Posting shit on the Internet = easy, boring, ineffective.

[pkay]

Are you trying to say you hate your government so much you won't protest against them?

Astounding. You should move to China!

I really hope the majority are less cynical and more energetic than you. Posting shit on the Internet = easy, boring, ineffective.

You're assuming a lot about me.

I'm protesting against my government just not in the same way as you are. I've protested against a local politician who was caught embezling money but refused to resign. I protested against our governor (ironically now running for president) for his imminent domain claims on some of the poorest people in our state. I protested the Syrian embassy in washington DC when a syrian operative was caught in lebanon trying to blow up a school. Multiple times a year I'm involved with voicing my opinion and moving for political actions... not just with a sign but also at the ballot box where I can empower people I believe in.

You're accusing me of not being political because I don't share the same opinion as you or the same methods on this one issue. That's intolerant and fairly ignorant of you. Maybe you should move to China.

[magma]

Are you trying to say you hate your government so much you won't protest against them?

Astounding. You should move to China!

I really hope the majority are less cynical and more energetic than you. Posting shit on the Internet = easy, boring, ineffective.

You're assuming a lot about me.

I'm protesting against my government just not in the same way as you are. I've protested against a local politician who was caught embezling money but refused to resign. I protested against our governor (ironically now running for president) for his imminent domain claims on some of the poorest people in our state. I protested the Syrian embassy in washington DC when a syrian operative was caught in lebanon trying to blow up a school. Multiple times a year I'm involved with voicing my opinion and moving for political actions... not just with a sign but also at the ballot box where I can empower people I believe in.

You're accusing me of not being political because I don't share the same opinion as you or the same methods on this one issue. That's intolerant and fairly ignorant of you. Maybe you should move to China.

Touché, perhaps we should each stop talking shit about people we've not met? You certainly can't speak for the opinions of #occupywallstreet protesters as you're not engaging with the movement.. the only way to work out if you're with or against them is to attend a General Assembly. I'll stop making assumptions about your views in return.

Fair play for standing up against individual issues of corruption and individual crimes. That's very admirable. I truly believe this is the time for people to band together to make much more wide-ranging change to our society though... this isn't about pulling down individual politicians or businesses on single issues, it's about changing the rules to the game that we're all forced to play to make it fair for the majority. I genuinely believe we all need to be involved in the conversation which is starting to happen - the more of us that are, the more likely it is to have an impact. I'm more fired up about this than I was about the Iraq war... that affected tens of millions, this affects billions. In my very humble opinion, we must stand together and show solidarity.

Peace.

[kidshuffle]

I'm glad to see Occupyers in my city are making their point known, by asking for condom donations

[dreamizm]

Although I support protest, unity and debate I don't get these protests on a number of levels and I think any comparison to the Arab Spring is frankly ridiculous.

Firstly, how can you protest against Greed? It's like protesting against 'fear' or 'love'..

Secondly, when you have so much critical mass and - as magma pointed out - nearly everyone is in agreement (so far), who are you actually speaking to? This 1% needs to be much better articulated.

I get the 'why' and the 'when'... I just don't get the rest..

[magma]

Firstly, how can you protest against Greed? It's like protesting against 'fear' or 'love'..

This is a totally logical question and hopefully has a logical answer, I think. It's not protesting against the notion of Greed, per se, it's protesting at the lack of regulation curbing that greed.

There's nothing unnatural about a person taking everything they can from life for themselves and their family, that's just normal human behaviour... the role of society should be to set limits so that after a while more tax is being paid to the country or a higher proportion is filtered into employee wages.

The existence of someone like Bill Gates, for example, is a good thing.. he's helped our world achieve an awful of progress and his products have provided careers for a lot of us (me included) and entertainment/education/information for the rest. He acheived most of it through being hugely motivated by money. Money's not a bad motivation - it's why we all go to work! The problem is that he's been allowed to amass hundreds of billions of dollars in one man's name... luckily, in his case, he appears to have some sort of conscience these days, but we shouldn't have to wait for super-rich people to turn themselves into philanthropists... society should be stepping in before their personal bank accounts closer resemble national economies.

[AllNightDayDream]

Firstly I want to apologize for being a bit polemic, the internet gets the best of me sometimes. I just think the focus should be on the real issues. It's really easy to hate on protests like these but it would be harder to take the opportunity to make something constructive out of it.

Capitalism in the US is not the same as in your country agreed?

How so? There are some differences, like the NHS, their central banks, but english speaking countries in general follow the same economic patterns and fluctuations. Australia experienced similar problems also related to the housing market.

The sort of political action you described in taking is exactly the kind of thing we need en masse, so I also don't understand how you can argue against following through in the political process and just abandon the government, then turn around and talk about how you protest and vote etc.

[-[2]DAY_-]

Capitalism isn't about fair.
They wan't socialism.

thats utter nonsense. Capitalism can be fair. There's plenty difference between developing, financing, producing and marketing good products for profit on the corporate level (or otherwise) and sitting in offices inventing new financial products based on derivatives of bundled collateralized debt and passing the product along as a healthy asset while knowing its worth is closer to zero than its face value, That isn't proper finance, it isn't fair capitalism. its a gang of assholes who are too good at math for their own good, materializing intangible products out of thin air to line their pockets and pass toxic debt along to other suckers.

The whole Capitalism/Socialism black and white / this or that philosophy is moronic.

[AllNightDayDream]

Indeed. Socialism isn't the antithesis of capitalism, it's the inevitable, better developed version of it.

[pkay]

Firstly I want to apologize for being a bit polemic, the internet gets the best of me sometimes. I just think the focus should be on the real issues. It's really easy to hate on protests like these but it would be harder to take the opportunity to make something constructive out of it.

Capitalism in the US is not the same as in your country agreed?

How so? There are some differences, like the NHS, their central banks, but english speaking countries in general follow the same economic patterns and fluctuations. Australia experienced similar problems also related to the housing market.

The sort of political action you described in taking is exactly the kind of thing we need en masse, so I also don't understand how you can argue against following through in the political process and just abandon the government, then turn around and talk about how you protest and vote etc.

on a very basic level, NZ for example has some very strict regulations on corporations. This would indicate a very different type of capitalism in their country than in the US. The UK has very diferent structure in regards to interest rates and loan practices. Government involvement in capitalism alters the level of capitalism occurring.

We went through this a few months back in another thread. Forget the thread name.