Aliens...OH NO

[hugh]

are you not aware of all the shit governments tried to pull back in the day. the great plague was man made I think..

Serious? You're serious? People were engineering global pandemics when the best scientists in the world were yet to properly understand how disease even spread between humans? Before we'd even seen bacteria in a microscope let alone come up with a concept of what they are?

Even something obvious like The Great Fire Of London was largely put down to an act of God and it occurred in the same decade! The best effort to contain the Great Plague was a cull of cats and dogs - exactly what you don't do if you understand how plague is spread (which you'd need to do in order for someone to have engineered the outbreak).

You either need some evidence or a very good punchline.

actually the great fire of london was caused by those baddies in batman returns. havent you seen it?
p.s. this topic is pissing me off because you lot are moaning a lot but not suggesting solutions. Talking about policies are a lot easier than implementing them. Also i laugh at the idea that governments are employing some kind of multi-layered double-triple-quadrouple bluff and that secretly they are in control of everything. LARF. Anyone who has worked or knows someone who has worked in government, on either a local or national level, can tell you what a diabolical incompetent mess it all is. Plainly governments are trying to take back certain powers for whatever motivations, but it simply won't happen. As much as you all seem to be determined that it will.

[gwa]

I'm posting from my phone, I can't say it was the great plague for sure but there was something big that killed a lot.
I'll let you know when I've found it. Freemasons and the illuminati have been running tings since 1600s or so

[magma]

I've read a massive amount of British and European History over the last couple of years, and I've seen no mention of manmade plague, not even allusions to it. Would be really interested to see what sources made you so sure of that, gwa.

I find it difficult to believe that the Illuminati were creating bacterial pandemics given that scientists didn't see a cell under a microscope until the final quarter of that century and didn't get a view or grasp of what bacteria was until shortly afterwards (they still described cells as 'little animals', actually - check out the very recent BBC documentary series on The Cell - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... n_Kingdom/)

Learning some History is the best thing I've ever done, but if you have articles that make your viewpoint obvious (which I assume you must in order to believe it yourself?) then I'd love to see them. There seem to be only a few eye-witness sources still remaining from that period... Samuel Pepys etc and he doesn't seem to mention much about it.

[dreamizm]

the great plague was man made I think..

haha... "You think"!??

oh dear... somes up everything that's wrong with this thread and conspiracy theories in general

[hackman]

Yes, we need to fight to get that right back, I fully agree - but taking it away is not comparable to being poor with no hope of redemption, dying of disease, being under the whip of the local Lord of the Manor or Mill Owner or watching your kids die because you can't provide them with clean water which was the status quo for most of the people of Western Europe until the 20th Century

so none of that still going on in world then? lol
im always going to disagree with you cos you seem content with life appearing to be good for us, shit for 60% of world, but that in reality its still shit for us and could be a lot better

[hackman]

are you not aware of all the shit governments tried to pull back in the day. the great plague was man made I think..

Serious? You're serious? People were engineering global pandemics when the best scientists in the world were yet to properly understand how disease even spread between humans? Before we'd even seen bacteria in a microscope let alone come up with a concept of what they are?

Even something obvious like The Great Fire Of London was largely put down to an act of God and it occurred in the same decade! The best effort to contain the Great Plague was a cull of cats and dogs - exactly what you don't do if you understand how plague is spread (which you'd need to do in order for someone to have engineered the outbreak).

You either need some evidence or a very good punchline.

actually the great fire of london was caused by those baddies in batman returns. havent you seen it?
p.s. this topic is pissing me off because you lot are moaning a lot but not suggesting solutions. Talking about policies are a lot easier than implementing them. Also i laugh at the idea that governments are employing some kind of multi-layered double-triple-quadrouple bluff and that secretly they are in control of everything. LARF. Anyone who has worked or knows someone who has worked in government, on either a local or national level, can tell you what a diabolical incompetent mess it all is. Plainly governments are trying to take back certain powers for whatever motivations, but it simply won't happen. As much as you all seem to be determined that it will.

i laugh at you. Laugh. LARF. LARRRFLAAAAARRRRRRFFF

[gwa]

dreamizm your post makes no sense

magma, the news you read and the history you research isn't always telling the truth. seen as the govt. control what gets said and reported.

as an example..
pearl habour all started because america dunked a Japanese ship or maybe submarine so they could use that as an excuse to join in ww2. if I remember correctly history books don't state that

[hackman]

I've read a massive amount of British and European History over the last couple of years, and I've seen no mention of manmade plague, not even allusions to it. Would be really interested to see what sources made you so sure of that, gwa.

I find it difficult to believe that the Illuminati were creating bacterial pandemics given that scientists didn't see a cell under a microscope until the final quarter of that century and didn't get a view or grasp of what bacteria was until shortly afterwards (they still described cells as 'little animals', actually - check out the very recent BBC documentary series on The Cell - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... n_Kingdom/)

Learning some History is the best thing I've ever done, but if you have articles that make your viewpoint obvious (which I assume you must in order to believe it yourself?) then I'd love to see them. There seem to be only a few eye-witness sources still remaining from that period... Samuel Pepys etc and he doesn't seem to mention much about it.

pepys was a freemason, probably illuminati, not that i agree that the plauge was man made

[magma]

magma, the news you read and the history you research isn't always telling the truth. seen as the govt. control what gets said and reported.

I try to read from a few different sources, but "new revelations" are rather difficult to find when we're discussing the 17th Century. I don't take what I read as gospel, but something like the plague is pretty easy - given that we didn't understand how disease worked at that point in history, the idea of a manmade pandemic is very difficult to believe.

Where did you learn about the Plague Conspiracy? If you could share links/book titles/published papers, perhaps we could discuss them properly...

[magma]

magma, the news you read and the history you research isn't always telling the truth. seen as the govt. control what gets said and reported.

I try to read from a few different sources, but "new revelations" are rather difficult to find when we're discussing the 17th Century. I don't take what I read as gospel, but something like the plague is pretty easy - given that we didn't understand how disease worked at that point in history, the idea of a manmade pandemic is very difficult to believe.

Where did you learn about the Plague Conspiracy? If you could share links/book titles/published papers, perhaps we could discuss them properly...

[magma]

Yes, we need to fight to get that right back, I fully agree - but taking it away is not comparable to being poor with no hope of redemption, dying of disease, being under the whip of the local Lord of the Manor or Mill Owner or watching your kids die because you can't provide them with clean water which was the status quo for most of the people of Western Europe until the 20th Century

so none of that still going on in world then? lol
im always going to disagree with you cos you seem content with life appearing to be good for us, shit for 60% of world, but that in reality its still shit for us and could be a lot better

Of course it's still going on all over the world, but in the places with effective, democratic governemnt it is much reduced compared to before. In places that haven't effectively democratised quality of life is far less improved over the 20th Century. That's why it's my opinion that the quicker the world democratises and comes together in the name of shared human goals, the better.

I don't really see everyone's problem with that.

[dreamizm]

Back on topic...

"We are the aliens (in the beginning of transition to type 1).."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmXJyZoa ... re=related

[weis]

the great plague was man made I think..

haha... "You think"!??

oh dear... somes up everything that's wrong with this thread and conspiracy theories in general

was absolutely thinking the same

[hackman]

Yes, we need to fight to get that right back, I fully agree - but taking it away is not comparable to being poor with no hope of redemption, dying of disease, being under the whip of the local Lord of the Manor or Mill Owner or watching your kids die because you can't provide them with clean water which was the status quo for most of the people of Western Europe until the 20th Century

so none of that still going on in world then? lol
im always going to disagree with you cos you seem content with life appearing to be good for us, shit for 60% of world, but that in reality its still shit for us and could be a lot better

Of course it's still going on all over the world, but in the places with effective, democratic governemnt it is much reduced compared to before. In places that haven't effectively democratised quality of life is far less improved over the 20th Century. That's why it's my opinion that the quicker the world democratises and comes together in the name of shared human goals, the better.

I don't really see everyone's problem with that.

whoah whoah whoah, do you not get that by inflicting "western "democracy"" on less developed countries just makes the whole situation worse?
and that our UNdemocratic government milks and perpetuates the whole situation?

and dont argue that we helped those places by getting the facist dictator out of the picture, more often than not those dictators were supported and hel[ped to power by the US/UK in the first place so they could keep control of the region for them in the first place

[gwa]

I was using it as an example and it's been a very long time since I read about it.

Cut me some slack, I'm recovering from a heavy weekend, I'll find the infomation when I get home

[hackman]

i do agree though on shared human goals, but that will never happen unless money, government abolished and all information shared, INCLUDING DISCLOSURE ON ALIENS

or our cosmic brothers and sisters

[magma]

Yes, we need to fight to get that right back, I fully agree - but taking it away is not comparable to being poor with no hope of redemption, dying of disease, being under the whip of the local Lord of the Manor or Mill Owner or watching your kids die because you can't provide them with clean water which was the status quo for most of the people of Western Europe until the 20th Century

so none of that still going on in world then? lol
im always going to disagree with you cos you seem content with life appearing to be good for us, shit for 60% of world, but that in reality its still shit for us and could be a lot better

Of course it's still going on all over the world, but in the places with effective, democratic governemnt it is much reduced compared to before. In places that haven't effectively democratised quality of life is far less improved over the 20th Century. That's why it's my opinion that the quicker the world democratises and comes together in the name of shared human goals, the better.

I don't really see everyone's problem with that.

whoah whoah whoah, do you not get that by inflicting "western "democracy"" on less developed countries just makes the whole situation worse?
and that our UNdemocratic government milks and perpetuates the whole situation?

and dont argue that we helped those places by getting the facist dictator out of the picture, more often than not those dictators were supported and hel[ped to power by the US/UK in the first place so they could keep control of the region for them in the first place

It's a good job that I didn't say and don't believe either of those things then.

I don't agree with imposing democracy down the barrel of a gun - I don't believe it works. It must be remembered that the "stable" democracies in the West have developed over a period of hundreds of years - their societies over longer than that. That's a long time for the people to get used to the idea of democracy and this idea of Western "freedom" - it's been part of our society so long that some people on the top rungs of diplomacy believe it's easy for people from all cultures to accept them overnight - of course it's not. Societies evolve over decades and centuries, not months and years.

For example, I think one of the worst ways to try and achieve stability in the Middle East is going to war. I'm against the Iraq war. I'm aganist the Afghanistan war. I'd be against the Iran war, which I see as being the most ill-advised of all the possibilities. Iran is on the verge of a tipping point - the burgeoning Middle Class is just starting to exercise its voice and given time, their society will change - there is massive demand for close trading with the West even now... my personal opinion is that they need to decide what is best for their own country... and if they require our help (military, economic or otherwise), they can ask.

But in the end, I do believe that in several centuries it is possible to have a democratised world. Regional government can stay. National government can stay. All areas have their individual concerns, resources, industry and issues - but I believe that it would be a positive thing for mankind if things like minimum wage, safe working conditions, clean drinking water and the freedom to believe and worship whatever you want were extended across the globe by some sort of global alliance or government.

I'm sorry that's such an unpleasant point of view for you.

[dreamizm]

Mexican govt putting pressure on US for disclosure: Jan 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQgF4zzfQKQ&NR=1

[hackman]

its an unpleasant view because you just dont get that democracies dont work in a monetary society, always greedy oppurtunistic wankers that will abuse democracy therefore not making it democracy
uk is not a democracy, we get the say in a few minor petty things, but most things are done out of the public eye without public say
a larger percent of the population were against the iraq/afghansitan war than those that for yet we still got involved, totalitarian not democratic
only ever get the vote for torys and conservatives between which there is no real difference

[magma]

its an unpleasant view because you just dont get that democracies dont work in a monetary society, always greedy oppurtunistic wankers that will abuse democracy therefore not making it democracy
uk is not a democracy, we get the say in a few minor petty things, but most things are done out of the public eye without public say
a larger percent of the population were against the iraq/afghansitan war than those that for yet we still got involved, totalitarian not democratic
only ever get the vote for torys and conservatives between which there is no real difference

Over the last two hundred years, the British people have won the following rights:

The right for everyone (women and ethnic minorities included) to vote.
The right to financial support should they lose their job. (20th Century - prior to that you went to the workhouse or prison for being poor)
The right to a minimum wage (this was given only in the last 10-12 years)
The right to free health care when sick (20th Century)
The right to earn a state pension when retired (though this one must be fought for and kept!)
The right not to go to war as a conscientious objector (again only won in the 20th Century)
The right to marry whoever you choose, male or female (again, last couple of years).
The right to be a member of a union.

That's just off the top of my head and most of them are within the last century, to be honest. The people are still powerful - it's just that we've already won most of the major things we needed. We must be vigilant that we don't give things back (for example the right to protest outside parliament must be re-won), but those are major, major advances... and relatively recent ones.

Your lack of faith in the people does people like tr0tsky, who fight for your rights every day of their lives a massive disservice.... oh, and Tories and Conservatives are two names for the same party, mate (the Whigs came up with the Conservative nickname Tory from the Gaelic for Bogtrotter in the 18th Century).