The meaning of life...why are we here?

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Genevieve
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Post by Genevieve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:22 pm

FAUST.DTC wrote:Something that puzzles me is how human evolution is so drastically advanced compared to other animals. How have we managed to evolve in to such a 'superior' species
I see the quotation marks, but we haven't. We've evolved a 'different' species. The human brain is so large that giving birth to a child is dangerous to the female body (not so much with modern medicine) and the child is fairly immobile and completely dependent on its caretakers for the longest time. That's a big flaw.
FAUST.DTC wrote:but why havnt we then evolved into a new form in such a long time?
We've been around 200 thousand years. Most species of animal around today have been around for much longer.. modern lions have been around for over a million years if I recall correctly.

Why haven't we changed? Well we don't have to. We're doing well. Evolution is a continuous process, but speciation isn't. Speciation works in drastic steps after long times of inactivity. We don't have to change because we're not being weeded out by nature. In fact, we're incredibly successful. Look at sponges, for example. Been around since the Cambrian. Almost unchanged.

Edit: Read this article for more on this. This occurrence is called Punctuated equilibrium and this is the first time I managed to spell it flawlessly.
FAUST.DTC wrote:What is stopping other animals from mentally evolving into an advanced species like us.
We're very, very, very inefficient animals. Horses only need to sleep for 2 or 3 hours per night because their brains don't need as much energy, for example. Many animals could evolve human type hyper-intelligence, but they're not because being an intelligent human means a lot of sacrifices in strength and other things.

For example... there's this type of diving bird, forgot what its called. Its extant (still living) ancestors flew to an isolated group of islands a couple of hundred thousand years ago. There were no predators on that island and they were capable of diving, so with time, they lost their flight muscles. Why? Because muscles require tons of energy. Chicks that didn't have to develop a flight mechanism could use the energy into growing up faster (not consciously) rather than developing flight muscles and since there were no predators there, they didn't need to fly away to stay alive. So while 'flight' is generally perceived as a 'superior trait', it's not when your survival doesn't depend on it and then it becomes a hindrance.

Imagine those flight muscles being our brain. When you don't _need_ them to survive, you won't have. Evolution will never add anything that isn't needed and will get rid of anything that isn't needed. No other animal needs it. We did. And in, let's say, antelopes, having that huge brain means being immobile for a long time after birth because the antelopes would have a bigger head. That makes them more vulnerable to predators for a longer time after birth and thus less likely to survive and thus, less likely to pass on that larger brain to the next generation.

Edit: ugh, I'm so unstructured.
Last edited by Genevieve on Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:43 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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kins83
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Post by kins83 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:23 pm

FAUST.DTC wrote:How have we managed to evolve in to such a 'superior' species but why havnt we then evolved into a new form in such a long time?
There's not really any evolutionary pressure on us anymore. We have no predators or distinctly different habitats to drive our bodies to change - we can build/wear stuff that does it for us.

Also, evolution into a 'new form' requires mutations and subsequent reproduction too. Most mutations in nature will give the creature some sort of hunting/hiding/reproduction advantage meaning that they have a good chance of passing those 'mutated' genes on. Repeat this hundreds, thousands of times and you'll eventually arrive at a stable 'new form'.

I don't think a 'new form' human mutant would have much reproductive success as we tend to play by slightly different rules to the rest of nature. I.e it's not just about catching food successfully, dodging your predatiors successfully etc...
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kins83
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Post by kins83 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:23 pm

Double
Last edited by kins83 on Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

spursingham
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Post by spursingham » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:28 pm

NilsFG wrote:
Spursingham wrote:
DID wrote:42.
Already said that one.
Don't panic.
I apologise profusely.
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spursingham
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Post by spursingham » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:29 pm

Dead Rats wrote:
Spursingham wrote:
DID wrote:42.
Already said that one.
Leave DID alone!

He might be a dirty Northern wankstain, but he's alright if you look past his ugly mug and burger van occupation.
I apologise profusely.
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bandshell
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Post by bandshell » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:30 pm

Spursingham wrote:42
:4: Big up Douglas Adams.

I don't think there is any reason or purpose to existence and I don't think there needs to be. Purpose is just something a lot of people seem to need.

We can only see anything from a human perspective or a human idea of a perspective other than our own so I don't think we will ever understand anything fully. I also believe the search for God is futile, if God is everything people claim to be, then there's no human way we can find it if it does in fact exist.

I'm sure we could easily analyze the life of meaning though.
Last edited by bandshell on Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

NilsFG
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Post by NilsFG » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:32 pm

Spursingham wrote:
NilsFG wrote: Don't panic.
I apologise profusely.
d'aww you didn't get my subte reference to the guide :(

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phase 2
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Post by phase 2 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:35 pm

For me, life is essentially futile in terms of what we gain at the end (death), but with that in mind and accepted, we can say that the best thing in life is to make the futile experience more tolerable for ourselves and others. How this manifests itself is up to you. Personal relationships, being kind to others, or even changing the world for the better. My contribution is shouting very loud about all the things I love, in the hope that others will like them and be better for having acquired them. Music, movies, ideologies etc. You just try coming to my house without having a documentary forced on you. ;-)

That's perhaps strictly more of a raison d'être, but it still about covers it for me.
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spursingham
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Post by spursingham » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:36 pm

NilsFG wrote:
Spursingham wrote:
NilsFG wrote: Don't panic.
I apologise profusely.
d'aww you didn't get my subte reference to the guide :(

Oh haha
Whata fucking numpty.
How did i not spot that?!?
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faust.dtc
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Post by faust.dtc » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:40 pm

A big thank you to those that have taken the time to explain to me some of the questions that I have always wondered, its been a really interesting read for me so far.

And a big fuck you to those that have just talked about bum sex. :lol:

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uncle bill
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Post by uncle bill » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:40 pm

bandshell wrote:
I don't think there is any reason or purpose to existence and I don't think there needs to be. Purpose is just something a lot of people seem to need.

We can only see anything from a human perspective or a human idea of a perspective other than our own so I don't think we will ever understand anything fully. I also believe the search for God is futile, if God is everything people claim to be, then there's no human way we can find it if it does in fact exist.
Spot on. We can’t even comprehend the workings of the human mind objectively. How do we propose to understand the mind of God?
Spursingham wrote:42
Yup. Anyone who claims to have the answer doesn’t really know what the question is.
Hit that long lunar note and let it float ...

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Genevieve
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Post by Genevieve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:41 pm

A2M

y/n?
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magma
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Post by magma » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:42 pm

Uncle Bill wrote:
FAUST.DTC wrote:Something that puzzles me is how human evolution is so drastically advanced compared to other animals. How have we managed to evolve in to such a 'superior' species but why havnt we then evolved into a new form in such a long time? What is stopping other animals from mentally evolving into an advanced species like us.
We only involved that way because of a set of environmental factors that were specific to the human animal in a particular time and place.

Presumably the same set of circumstances has just never occured for any other species.
I think people underestimate the effect that civilisation and society have on distorting the gap between humans and other animals. We do have fantastically more brainpower than even our nearest competitors, but most importantly, we have the ability to pass on and build upon knowledge from generation to generation leading to genuine progress for our race as a whole.

For example - General Relativity wasn't purely discovered by Einstein. He built upon thousands of years of human research into physics... things like that are achievements for the race as much as they are for the individual.

A human from 10,000 years ago would have more or less the same physical/mental makeup as a human from today, but without the backup of today's shared knowledge and social constructs, they would be forced to live a very "animalistic" life.... they would still have artistic and communicative impulses, but without all the hard work that other humans have done in the mean time, they wouldn't have language, wouldn't have paints, wouldn't have musical instruments, they wouldn't even have fire or a wheel.

So I would contend that civilisation is the biggest factor for human progress and it's not evolutionary... in fact, over time (or possibly already), it may well replace natural evolution for humans. As science and technology rumbles on, we are able to "upgrade" humans in order to overcome our genetic failures - whereas in natural environments, genes that produce weakness would be incidentally weeded out over hundreds/thousands of generations, we overcome their problems with technology and so they stay in the gene pool - weak people breed, 'unattractive' people breed, people with known genetic issues breed - and they all survive too.

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kins83
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Post by kins83 » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:44 pm

Magma on fire. Nice post.
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Genevieve
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Post by Genevieve » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:45 pm

I don't want to nitpick, but fire was discovered in Homo erectus. I think around 600 thousand years ago, in Africa. o_o
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bandshell
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Post by bandshell » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:46 pm

yeah, I agree with Magma on that point.

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Post by RubiconMan » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:47 pm

why are we here ?

to get 10,000 posts and fuck off
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magma
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Post by magma » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:48 pm

Genevieve wrote:I don't want to nitpick, but fire was discovered in Homo erectus. I think around 600 thousand years ago, in Africa. o_o
Fair point.... but a human isn't born knowing how to make it, is it? Whether the knowledge started being passed down before Homo Sapiens evolved... it still needed to be passed down for us all to know it. We don't have an instinctive ability to create fire....
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Give me dollars when I'm hard up, religion when I die."
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bandshell
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Post by bandshell » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:49 pm

Genevieve wrote:I don't want to nitpick, but fuck it why not
:lol:

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triptych
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Post by triptych » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:52 pm

Fuck...this...shit!

I used to think about this shit all the time, I think it's too much for us to comprehend.
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