Solid Sub Bass

[gantzgraf]

gotta check out rbass by waves

[SunkLo]

gotta check out rbass by waves

It does this:

you can always generate some lows to tuck in high passed under your main bass.

It's basically a saturator and lowpass, better off making it yourself imo. That way you can control the envelope of you bass harmonics independent of your sub, sidechain it, filter it, etc.

[dj0045]

Yo guys... I get why some of you have an issue with what I am saying. And fine on some level it's to each there own, but on some level it really isn't it. For me, it pretty much comes down to this: the moment I stopped thinking sine waves = sub is pretty much the moment my tracks started sounding pro. Now I will admit that a saturated sine wave will give you sub, but the key word there is "saturated" and not "sine".

And the more you saturate that sine wave, the more it starts to sound like a low passed combination patch like the ones I described - so IMO combination patches combined with filters are just faster ways to get there.

That said, there is some confusion in this post; for example: the albino sine wave peaking at ~63 hz has audible harmonics hitting from about 16 hz to about 250 hz (hence the warmth). Nothing wrong with using it, but there is something wrong with describing it as a sine. You can call it Albino's sine wave, but anything more than that would be inaccurate. A sine wave as most of you already know has no harmonics, so a true sine will not have that range - it will just be one frequency. A true sine wave IMO is pretty useless for sub - just IMO fine, fine, fine... jeez (lol) (BTW those harmonics are the reason Albino's sine sounds better than Massive's for sub)

At freakah - you are right - your sub sounds fine (although I personally would have preferred a richer sound, your subs are absolutely appropriate to the songs, and they certainly sound pro enough - good job!). But the reason they sound good is that your sub is not in actual fact a sine wave. Sure it's close to one, but it's not one.

And finally, here is why I think you need those harmonics: every room and every system your track might get played in will have frequencies it reproduces well, and frequencies it reproduces badly. The truer your sine is the more likely it will be just one frequency - and therefor it can completely disappear in the right (wrong) room or even worse get highly augmented. If your sub has rich harmonics, it will reproduce better on a larger number of systems in a larger number of rooms (never mind getting into how different people hear, which ads another element to my argument that I don't even want to get into). The need for rich harmonics implies (edit: implies is too strong - you can do whatever you like obviously - I just think not using a sine wave (pure or otherwise) is easier) that you should use something other than just a pure sine wave... Take it or leave it.

[gantzgraf]

Yo guys... I get why some of you have an issue with what I am saying. And fine on some level it's to each there own, but on some level it really isn't it. For me, it pretty much comes down to this: the moment I stopped thinking sine waves = sub is pretty much the moment my tracks started sounding pro. Now I will admit that a saturated sine wave will give you sub, but the key word there is "saturated" and not "sine".

And the more you saturate that sine wave, the more it starts to sound like a low passed combination patch like the ones I described - so IMO combination patches combined with filters are just faster ways to get there.

That said, there is some confusion in this post; for example: the albino sine wave peaking at ~63 hz has audible harmonics hitting from about 16 hz to about 250 hz (hence the warmth). Nothing wrong with using it, but there is something wrong with describing it as a sine. You can call it Albino's sine wave, but anything more than that would be inaccurate. A sine wave as most of you already know has no harmonics, so a true sine will not have that range - it will just be one frequency. A true sine wave IMO is pretty useless for sub - just IMO fine, fine, fine... jeez (lol) (BTW those harmonics are the reason Albino's sine sounds better than Massive's for sub)

At freakah - you are right - your sub sounds fine (although I personally would have preferred a richer sound, your subs are absolutely appropriate to the songs, and they certainly sound pro enough - good job!). But the reason they sound good is that your sub is not in actual fact a sine wave. Sure it's close to one, but it's not one.

And finally, here is why I think you need those harmonics: every room and every system your track might get played in will have frequencies it reproduces well, and frequencies it reproduces badly. The truer your sine is the more likely it will be just one frequency - and therefor it can completely disappear in the right (wrong) room or even worse get highly augmented. If your sub has rich harmonics, it will reproduce better on a larger number of systems in a larger number of rooms (never mind getting into how different people hear, which ads another element to my argument that I don't even want to get into). The need for rich harmonics implies (edit: implies is too strong - you can do whatever you like obviously - I just think not using a sine wave (pure or otherwise) is easier) that you should use something other than just a pure sine wave... Take it or leave it.

i take it

[SunkLo]

Harmonics will help translation to lesser systems but will also compete for frequency space. The most powerful sub will be a bare sine. Yes you'll need a decent system, but it will be the most powerful on that system as compared to something with more harmonics. There's loads of reasons why: The more harmonics, the more headroom it's going to take, and the quieter it will be. It will also be taking a bite out of that frequency region's local headroom. The speaker will be more effective at producing a single powerful tone as opposed to several overtones.

The sub's purpose is to be felt as well as heard, usually more so. You want as much power to be delivered to the speaker as possible without wasting any energy. With a clean sub, the speaker will have less work to do, will have less phase nulls, less distortion, etc. and will be better able to fulfil the task of filling out the sub-frequency range.

Also take into account how our ears work. A single tone with lots of frequency space around it will stand out to our ears more than several tones in that region. This is the difference between clarity and muddiness, sharp vs blunt. The more things taking up a frequency range, the harder it is for our ears to distinguish the sounds. If you've got a nice clean sine at the very bottom of the range it will still provide maximum effect without confusing the ear and muddying things up. Like I said before with my nail analogy, a single tone will stand out more than a grouping of tones in terms of raw power and punch. Yes harmonics improve audibility, pitch recognition, etc. but that's not as much of a concern for subs as simply being able to move air.

Also it's bad enough with fletcher munson curves and the lower limit of hearing forcing you to turn up the low end, but with extra harmonics added in it makes it even more difficult for your fundamental tone to be heard. Space above your sub will help keep it from masking/being masked by other sound.

There maybe confusion as to what constitutes sub bass as well. Simply low bass might do better with some harmonics but it's the deep subs that we're advocating to keep clean. For the low portion of a bass sound, you may want to use saturation, waveform layering, filtering, etc to give it some character, but you may also want to layer a sub beneath that for some raw punch which you should keep pure. Basically the lower it goes, the more simple it should be. No modulation, no stereo spreading, no effects for the most part. Dynamics are an important part so pay attention to amp envelopes, compression, and other sounds in the range, namely your kick and when it's impacting. If you want better translation and audibility at lower volumes, add in a harmonically rich wave but high pass and low pass filter it so only a specific range is getting through and any frequencies that could cause muddiness are attenuated.

[dj0045]

In my experience, although everything you just said makes perfect sense to me - in fact it's almost identical to what I was thinking when I started trying to do exactly what you just suggested - in practice it just doesn't seem (note the word seem - because I may change my mind on this as I get better at production) to work out that way.

My current theory (note the word theory): Sub-woofers on a club system do not only reproduce sub. So a clean sine is worthless (at least for the specific purpose of keeping your low end simple for the speaker to reproduce) unless you do not have anything else at all up to (at the minimum) 150hz (max 250hz). Otherwise, that sub is going to be reproducing a ton of other sounds - part of your snare, wobble, yeah bass, whatever else you might add. It's all well and good to suppose that a sine will be easier to reproduce, but I don't actually believe it, and more over, in my personal experience, it is 100% not true.

Note: not disagreeing with anything you said, other than the part about a simple sine being better, or easier to reproduce. The no stereo part, and effects (other than saturation), I do agree with 100% - for now.

[JigSaw]

In my experience, although everything you just said makes perfect sense to me - in fact it's almost identical to what I was thinking when I started trying to do exactly what you just suggested - in practice it just doesn't seem (note the word seem - because I may change my mind on this as I get better at production) to work out that way.

My current theory (note the word theory): Sub-woofers on a club system do not only reproduce sub. So a clean sine is worthless (at least for the specific purpose of keeping your low end simple for the speaker to reproduce) unless you do not have anything else at all up to (at the minimum) 150hz (max 250hz). Otherwise, that sub is going to be reproducing a ton of other sounds - part of your snare, wobble, yeah bass, whatever else you might add. It's all well and good to suppose that a sine will be easier to reproduce, but I don't actually believe it, and more over, in my personal experience, it is 100% not true.

Note: not disagreeing with anything you said, other than the part about a simple sine being better, or easier to reproduce. The no stereo part, and effects (other than saturation), I do agree with 100% - for now.

word dj & the other dubstep ninjas of the night.

you're both right in what you are saying.

dj, think about your statement. sub-woofers on a club system do not only reproduce sub. that is fundamentally wrong. sub-woofers are designed to replicate sub bass frequencies. sub bass ones. not other ones, are what SHOULD be playing on a sub-woofer (regardless of where)

suppose, if YOUR sub-woofers are including other elements of your song (which, as we have identified, is not their intended purpose), that you may in fact be mixing your tracks inappropriately to realize their fullest potential?

suppose that this is correct. an otherwise pure sine wave, rumbling inside of a sub-woofer box, is getting all sorts of sound that it -SHOULD NOT- be getting, it would drastically reduce the quality of the bass, would it not?

so in order to counter that, you layer (eq, mod, effect, layer, magic) all kinds of un-needed shit into your sub, and VOILA! you have a -seemingly- full sub-bass, with "other" sounds in the sub aswell. thats "seems" (note the word seems) to be the problem.

the bass isn't the problem boss, its the mix.

[freakah]

the bass isn't the problem boss, its the mix.

This is a pretty good point. Your sub will sound crap if it's not got it's own space in the mix, whether it's a single sine wave or whether it's a combination of waves low-passed etc etc etc.

Make sure there's nothing anywhere near the frequency of your sub (frequency analysers FTW) and it'll sound large more times than not, regardless of the waves...

[deadly_habit]

the bass isn't the problem boss, its the mix.

This is a pretty good point. Your sub will sound crap if it's not got it's own space in the mix, whether it's a single sine wave or whether it's a combination of waves low-passed etc etc etc.

Make sure there's nothing anywhere near the frequency of your sub (frequency analysers FTW) and it'll sound large more times than not, regardless of the waves...

something i can use my 10k post on and feel like it's naught gone to waste completely. take up mix sculpting 101 by lord macc
there are a few reinforcement tricks as well, but i'll save those for something in depth
now what movie should i pop on to crash 2 tonight lads? http://www.tentativerecordings.com/list.txt ?

[Phigure]

the bass isn't the problem boss, its the mix.

This is a pretty good point. Your sub will sound crap if it's not got it's own space in the mix, whether it's a single sine wave or whether it's a combination of waves low-passed etc etc etc.

Make sure there's nothing anywhere near the frequency of your sub (frequency analysers FTW) and it'll sound large more times than not, regardless of the waves...

something i can use my 10k post on and feel like it's naught gone to waste completely. take up mix sculpting 101 by lord macc
there are a few reinforcement tricks as well, but i'll save those for something in depth
now what movie should i pop on to crash 2 tonight lads? http://www.tentativerecordings.com/list.txt ?

grats on 10K

also thx 1138

shutter island was pretty interesting too

[deadly_habit]

nah i want something fresh! try again!

[Phigure]

nah i want something fresh! try again!

well how am i supposed to know what you've seen?

[deadly_habit]

nah i want something fresh! try again!

well how am i supposed to know what you've seen?

think out the box what havent you seen or have not seen

[Phigure]

nah i want something fresh! try again!

well how am i supposed to know what you've seen?

think out the box what havent you seen or have not seen

well Behind The Mask - The Rise of Leslie Vernon was excellent

but a few random interesting looking ones i havent seen (judging by title) are:
[2010] Srpski film.avi
[2009] Walled In.avi
[2007] The Man From Earth.avi
[2007] Brain Dead.avi
[2005] The Call Of Cthulhu.avi (no idea this existed, must watch ASAP)
[2002] Den osynlige.avi

[zonetrooper5]

If you use Ableton Live then use Operator synth to make the sub-bass.

[dj0045]

dubstep ninjas of the night.

For some reason this just puts a huge grin on my face! dubstep ninjas! sweet!

dj, think about your statement. sub-woofers on a club system do not only reproduce sub. that is fundamentally wrong. sub-woofers are designed to replicate sub bass frequencies. sub bass ones. not other ones, are what SHOULD be playing on a sub-woofer (regardless of where)

I was obviously unclear - My point was that in just about any track there will be many elements that reach down below 250 hz. I know you dubstep, and DnB guys like to keep your snares and percussion pretty high up in the mix, but you replace them with other elements that hit in those frequencies. I mean the lower mid-range can't be all sines, or at least, I wouldn't like a track where it was.

So here is what I meant by "do not only reproduce sub" - they will not only be playing your simple sine wave sub. There will be other non-sine-wave elements in the sub-woofer's region hitting at most points in the song, so worrying about simplicity on just that one element might be a waste of time - at least on some songs.

the bass isn't the problem boss, its the mix.

This of course is true - 100% of the time.


Thinking about these posts it has occurred to me that I have omitted something of value - what I use to make my subs: DCam Synth Squad's Strobe. It's pretty damn awesome for sub, and it has the ability (in the box) to do 100% of everything I have suggested in this post. If you are having trouble making sub, get yourselves a demo and try it. Don't worry it is fully capable of doing simple sine basses, in case you decide that is all you want. Also pretty sure the sound quality on it completely outclasses Albino. (IMO IMO IMO)

[slothrop]

My current theory (note the word theory): Sub-woofers on a club system do not only reproduce sub. So a clean sine is worthless (at least for the specific purpose of keeping your low end simple for the speaker to reproduce) unless you do not have anything else at all up to (at the minimum) 150hz (max 250hz).

FWIW that's not the point at all - pretty much the opposite in fact. It's that if you've got a normal bass following the same notes as the sub but an octave up, there's no real point adding subtle extra harmonics to your sub because those harmonics are already there a lot louder in the other bass. In other words, by saturating your sine wave sub you're just transferring a bit of power from the sub to the mid-bass. Which might have a good effect on your bass sound as a whole, but isn't doing anything to give you a more solid sub.

[Sharmaji]

some folks need to dig a bit deeper into what rbass does.

[SunkLo]

some folks need to dig a bit deeper into what rbass does.

lol figured I'd get this hah
Pretty close though ain't I? Generates harmonics from phantom bass and mixes them in with the original? Could be done with a plugin chain, although Waves' algorithm probably has some optimization business going on.

[RAVE]

think out the box what havent you seen or have not seen

saw 'Moon' the other day. worth a watch.