On the possibility of objective aesthetic judgments

[corpsey]

me like dub step its gud sometimez

[incyde]

orange is flourescent brown

haha! but brown has blue in it, no?

poop has brown in it

[flippo]

orange is flourescent brown

haha! but brown has blue in it, no?

poop has brown in it

touche

[dj slums]

orange is flourescent brown

haha! but brown has blue in it, no?

poop has brown in it

touche

thats what your mum said last night.

[dougd]

[parson]

exterminate all rational thought

[cognitived]

the other day, me and my mate couldn't come to any sort of agreement as to whether a big boat was orange or pink. I was 100% certain it was pink, he was 100% certain it was orange. Neither of us are colourblind as such.

Why does pink get to be it's own group of colours and not just light reds? am I missing something?

LOLLOOOLLLOLOloLOLLOOLLLOollolllolllllllooooo

[-blade-]

orange is just pink made properly.

[dirtycash]

" True art can only survive if we destroy relativism. Because of it’s nihilistic, solipsist nature, relativism can never be refuted, since it would require the relativist to admit the value of what lies beyond his Ego. The tired counter that “relativism is relative” and refutes itself is ridiculous and unconvincing. The only cure is to show that relativists adopt that particular point of view simply because they are the product of an individualistic society (which is an objective entity) that promotes such views. Relativists think they are unique and clever, but are just puppets of a capitalist world that wants them to think so. Relativism is not a true philosophical point of view, but a mere social stereotype. "

My question for you all is this ; do you believe that a thing such as an objective aesthetic judgment is possible ? And why ? Do you believe that it is possible to state essential truths about Dubstep, and music in general, truths which possess universal validity ?

My belief is that aesthetic judgments are partly subjective, and not entirely subjective, like a lot of people seem to believe.

I have been thinking long and hard about this and I would like to hear your thoughts.

Yes, there are irrefutable truths that can be subscribed to dubstep.
If you look at Adorno;s view, he is championing the death of relativism.
In the process he is asking that an objective viewpoint be constructed from the removal of the ego.
As superior philosophical views state, the ego does not exist.
It is merely a construct of one's subjective experience.
To analyse anything accurately or truthfully, you must always remove the ego from this analysis thus rendering any conclusion 'objective'.
Lots of people remark on the 'physical' nature of dubstep, particularly in a live club environement on a big sound system.
This is a fantastic example of the objective nature of dubstep.
To use a subjective example to explain this simple objective truth >
If i take my Mum to a club, with a big soundsystem emanating sub heavy dubstep, she can very well make subjective observations like 'this music is terrible', but if i ask her 'how does it make you feel', she will probably respond by saying 'sick' or something to that effect. If i ask her can you feel the physical nature of the music , she will respond 'Yes'!
So by definition we have arrived at a simple universal dubstep truth,
'It is physical music', certainly in the instance of the club environment.
Ironically this is the case with all music if amplified to the degree of a highly spec'd club system, but as is the case with dubstep, this truth can only be reinforced if you compare the physical nature of say, dubstep vs instrumental acoustic guitar noodling on an identical rig!

[roko]

adorno can murk bare man!

i think deleuze can weigh in with some heavy bars on this subject though!

SEEN!!

[shonky]

My question for you all is this ; do you believe that a thing such as an objective aesthetic judgment is possible ? And why ? Do you believe that it is possible to state essential truths about Dubstep, and music in general, truths which possess universal validity ?

It's all going to be subjective isn't it. Don't think I've ever bought a tune just because everyone else thought it was good. Even if you do figure out that something is aesthetically perfect, it isn't necessarily going to connect and inspire the listener (like I find with Bach, even though he's seen as a pinnacle of human acheivement in some respects).

I also think that some of the old skool hardcore tunes with their dissonant atonality are far more interesting and what-the-fuck than many of their descendants. Production or even "musicality" (in the more muso sense) do not make great tunes. Same as seamless mixing does not necessarily make for an enjoyable evening out if the tunes are shit (or not to my tastes ). If you did come up with an "objective aesthetic judgement" there will still be people that agree with your finding but still not rate the tune

[stanton]

[

Yes, there are irrefutable truths that can be subscribed to dubstep.
If you look at Adorno;s view, he is championing the death of relativism.
In the process he is asking that an objective viewpoint be constructed from the removal of the ego.
As superior philosophical views state, the ego does not exist.
It is merely a construct of one's subjective experience.
To analyse anything accurately or truthfully, you must always remove the ego from this analysis thus rendering any conclusion 'objective'.
Lots of people remark on the 'physical' nature of dubstep, particularly in a live club environement on a big sound system.
This is a fantastic example of the objective nature of dubstep.
To use a subjective example to explain this simple objective truth >
If i take my Mum to a club, with a big soundsystem emanating sub heavy dubstep, she can very well make subjective observations like 'this music is terrible', but if i ask her 'how does it make you feel', she will probably respond by saying 'sick' or something to that effect. If i ask her can you feel the physical nature of the music , she will respond 'Yes'!
So by definition we have arrived at a simple universal dubstep truth,
'It is physical music', certainly in the instance of the club environment.
Ironically this is the case with all music if amplified to the degree of a highly spec'd club system, but as is the case with dubstep, this truth can only be reinforced if you compare the physical nature of say, dubstep vs instrumental acoustic guitar noodling on an identical rig!

This isn't an objective aesthetic judgement though, it just states that music with sub sonic bass has sub sonic bass (and the effects that go with such sound). It's a definition of a particular aspect of Dubstep music.

As I mentioned earlier though, theres far more to Dubstep and the removal of context seems wrong. I mean, if dubs are played in the wood and no one is there do they make a sound? (Joke)

Erm, I'm sooooo bloody hungover. I'll explain what I mean when my mind starts working. theres lots of great stuff in the logic of sensation thats relevant though, and some wicked stuff in 1000 plateaus. I'll have a look laters.

[elgato]

Yes, there are irrefutable truths that can be subscribed to dubstep.
Lots of people remark on the 'physical' nature of dubstep, particularly in a live club environement on a big sound system.
This is a fantastic example of the objective nature of dubstep.

this is an interesting point. but how much further can we go than saying it is physical music? that is something so much more scientific, i imagine capable of physical analysis using empirical evidence. and then i guess we can say that so far as we place trust in our level of scientific understanding (and indeed the scientific process in itself) we can say that there is this objective 'truth' regarding the music. although ultimately i have not heard a completely triumphant argument against solopsism... (not to say that i live my life by it!), and one could argue that scientific understanding is essentially another construct of humanity, and thus cannot lay claim to objectivity in a fundamental sense...

and it seems that almost any other judgements run into much more difficulty even than that?

and in any case the discussion seems to be focussing around value judgements... trying to construct a rationale to judge music to be 'good' or 'bad'?

[elgato]

This isn't an objective aesthetic judgement though, it just states that music with sub sonic bass has sub sonic bass (and the effects that go with such sound). It's a definition of a particular aspect of Dubstep music.

are aesthetics by definition tied to 'validity'? i dont have enough background to know. as physicality is surely an aspect of sensation, which is key to aesthetic no? again, i havent read enough to know

theres lots of great stuff in the logic of sensation thats relevant though, and some wicked stuff in 1000 plateaus. I'll have a look laters.

that'd be heavy

[stanton]

Yeah, thats me point. The idea of looking at things from a purely relative, individual level or a purely objective analytical level seems pointless. I really want to get stuck in to this, but I have to get some shots nailed this morning I'll have a thinksee and write something proper..

[-blade-]

btw
could be heavy to make a dance for the deaf people with dubstep because bass is the lead instrument...?

[elgato]

btw
could be heavy to make a dance for the deaf people with dubstep because bass is the lead instrument...?

dubstep is the one for that blatantly

as is plastic people... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3621529.stm

"I could feel it in my chest and my feet; it made me feel like I am flying."

deep

[-blade-]

btw
could be heavy to make a dance for the deaf people with dubstep because bass is the lead instrument...?

dubstep is the one for that blatantly

as is plastic people... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3621529.stm

"I could feel it in my chest and my feet; it made me feel like I am flying."

deep

sumone should tellem that they will make one for shure!

[stanton]

btw
could be heavy to make a dance for the deaf people with dubstep because bass is the lead instrument...?

dubstep is the one for that blatantly

as is plastic people... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3621529.stm

"I could feel it in my chest and my feet; it made me feel like I am flying."

deep

"...Michael Jackson's Billie Jean, which has a big panther of a bass line, is bound to get an airing; and one of my must-plays is LFO, a techno track from the early 90s famous for shattering club sound systems."

A big panther of a bassline! Mebbe thats what we need for a truly objective aesthetic assesment of tunes, animal analogies! "The new Obeah has a massive kestral of a bassline" or something...



LFO! Tune!

[nospin]

exterminate all rational thought

that is the conclusion i have come to