A look at piracy and this forum's outlook on it.

[twothirdsmajority]

I think piracy is a huge problem but unless if you come from a country where the pay is shit and the price of one song is equal to a Big Mac, then piracy is the last resort for the 99%.

But i oppose authoritarianism as a way to stop piracy. Politicians and lobbyists are trying to kill the Internet with things like the "SOPA bill" as an excuse to stop piracy. Piracy is a huge problem, but the only way is not through force.

Many DJs and producers refuse to admit but half of the world's bedroom DJs and producers start off by downloading pirate software. That African DJ at a Nightclub in Kinshasa might be using a prated version of VDJ because the software costs more than the gear he has over there, whereas that Serbian rave producer might used a pirated Ableton Live with a cracked FL Studio to make his songs. So we should not dismiss the people who get their stuff pirated because there are many factors to it including economic and political factors.

The best way to stop piracy is to have both mainstream and indie labels support mediums like Grooveshark and Spotify. Both of these websites have done a great service into combating piracy, especially Spotify since they've reduced piracy to favourable level in places like Sweden: http://torrentfreak.com/music-piracy-co ... fy-110928/

[garethom]

The best way to stop piracy is to have both mainstream and indie labels support mediums like Grooveshark and Spotify. Both of these websites have done a great service into combating piracy, especially Spotify since they've reduced piracy to favourable level in places like Sweden: http://torrentfreak.com/music-piracy-co ... fy-110928/

I read about ST Holdings removing their labels from spotify though, because of the stupidly low pay they get per play. Something like £0.006 per stream.

Edit: Couple of quotes from wiki. Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported in 2009 that record label Racing Junior had only earned NOK 19 ($3.00 USD) after their artists had been streamed over 55,100 times. According to an infographic by David McCandless, an independent artist on Spotify would need over four million streams per month to earn US$1,160.

[scattybeanhead]

, I think most music SHOULD be free of charge, and the money should be generated from live performances and getting your music used in film/television/video games/insert media platform here. For every day listening, however, I believe it should be free of charge.

This is the crux in the difference between your and my opinion.

i can't fathom how you can think this, it's a complete disregard for the time, effort and money spent learning how to produce, crafting a unique sound and honing your skills to the point where people want to actually listen to your music regularly.

And as I mentioned before, what of the music not suited to sync deals? Or the producers who don't want to / can't dj, but are geniuses in the studio? Should we disregard their music?

The flipside of your approach that music should be free to everyone, is that music should only be produced by those who can afford it. I don't want to live in that world.

I'm not understanding your comment, because I'm broke as hell and I can produce music. it doesn't really cost money to produce music if you learn your craft as you said. I make music for people to hear, not for the money. I'd put on a live performance for the money, however. Also because performing live is fun. If someone needs to see a profit for producing music, then they're not totally passionate about producing music. In my opinion, real musicians make music because it's fun, makes them feel good, and allows them to vent/express emotions via an art form.

that's a ridiculous comment mate. obviously you have some kind of job and so firstly don't rely on music. secondly you need to have a computer that's fairly good (one of the main things that's holding me back), along with software (which im guessing you've downloaded illegally) and some kind of hardware input. I am broke as hell and can't even begin to afford to start producing music, i don't even have speakers or headphones that are good enough to produce at any sort of level. either your productions are made on fruity loops with your ipod headphones to play to your mates on your phone or you're just full of shit

[murky21]

Get a Job>>Invest earnings in something worthwhile>>Support what gives you so much enjoyment>>Enable more of your favourite music to be made>>Be a responsible and conscientious adult>>Buy Vinyl>>Be Proud of your collection>>Look forward to digging out records to play your kids what you were listening to at their age>>Choose Life>>Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers

[scattybeanhead]

yeah all of that basically!

[D3ATHSTEP]

I'm going to break down your statement, not to be picky, just to clarify my point.

I'm not understanding your comment, because I'm broke as hell and I can produce music.

Presumably as a hobby, and no offence intended and this is assumption, I guess that your music probably sounds like it's at hobby/amatuer level. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, if it works for you then more power to you. But that's an incredibly individual thing. And certainly does not and should not apply to everyone.

it doesn't really cost money to produce music if you learn your craft as you said.

Of course it does, the instruments, the software, the hardware (unless you steal these as well - therefore screwing over untold levels of the music industry and further). The years spent on getting your sound to a good level. Paying for space to produce in or practice if you're a band. Soundproofing. Monitoring systems. The office chair you sit on. All cost money.

I make music for people to hear, not for the money.

ALL good musicians do. this does not negate the need to make money from it if you're putting hours , days, months and years into it.

I'd put on a live performance for the money, however. Also because performing live is fun.

Again, an incredibly narrow view and relative only to you as an individual, plenty of people may not want to perform ala Burial or Toasty.

If someone needs to see a profit for producing music, then they're not totally passionate about producing music.

Sorry man, but that's a ridiculous statement to make. A good artist who spends full time working days in the studio, creating an album that they are happy with on an integral creative level is due a wage, they have the basic right to sell thier music and see not PROFIT but a LIVING from the fruits of thier labour. Otherwise who would they be able to produce that album in the first place?!

In my opinion, real musicians make music because it's fun, makes them feel good, and allows them to vent/express emotions via an art form.

No one in their right mind would say otherwise, but this is not exclusive from having the right to earn a living from your work, irrespective of how much you enjoy it. Just because an electronic engineer fucking LOVES more than anything in the world, soldering transistors into TVs, making the best TVs his little hands can; is he denied the right expect a wage and the right to sell his product because it's his for of artistic expression?

If you start producing music in this day and age and expect to make money solely doing that, then you're fooling yourself. Produce music for movies/games/television, that's really the only sure-fire way to make money at JUST producing without playing live in my opinion. I'm not going to stop making music just because people aren't paying money for it, and neither should anyone who's serious.

[D3ATHSTEP]

Why do you need to buy 1,000 songs at once, no wonder you place so little value on music, you can't be taking it in properly...

I buy two or three albums a month and pay £10 a month for Spotify as well as a handful of singles, so spend about £50 a month on music and feel it's totally worth it. I can see the value in the music that I buy because I spend the time to get to know it, yeah, sometimes things are disappointing, but it's part of it.

I said a thousand because that's roughly how many songs I've gotten into over the past few years. A dollar is too much for one song in my opinion. It doesn't SOUND like too much, because the number "one" is in there, and generally a dollar is a good price for things. For music, I don't think this is the case. If there SHOULD be any charge at all for music, I feel it should be a fraction of a dollar. Like I said, I have enough shit to pay for, if I spent money on music each month based on how much I listen to, I would never have enough money to go out and enjoy myself with friends. It shouldn't be a trade off. You have very strict moral views, however, and they obviously can't be swayed.

[D3ATHSTEP]

so why dont I just got steal a car off a lot?. why should I be denied a nice brand new car?, I might not even like that car, why should I have to pay for it? i used to think like this, but realized eventually there is no other logical conclusion to reach other than it is stealing. if someone wants to learn guitar and doesnt have a job, why should they be denied their dream, they should be able to walk in guitar centre and take whatever they want, right?

so frankly, if youre downloading artists songs for free w/o their permission you are stealing.

as for youtube, it is absolutely piracy. 99% is a giant copyright violation. they just make it hard as hell for people to get their material off. imo it is a bit of a double standard for the forum. those links should be to sites where they can listen to a preview and purchase it, (if they still can) not to youtube.

just my 2 cents

steal (stiːl) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— vb , steals , stealing , stole , stolen
1. to take (something) from someone, etc without permission or unlawfully, esp in a secret manner
2. ( tr ) to obtain surreptitiously

To be fair, a car is just a luxury one gets specifically for the reason of having something nice(not to mention the fact that it's significantly more expensive than music). I don't think it's really fair to compare stealing a car with stealing software you'd use to pursue your passion of creating/listening to music. I do believe there are moral grey areas in regards to stealing, it isn't simply as black and white as you're making it out to be. This is just my opinion, however. Although rarely, I do feel as though stealing can sometimes be justified.

it really is black n white. and if you really think thats the case, can you tell me the value limit of which its ok to steal things? if a car is too much how about a tv? how about speakers to pursue my passion of creating/listenign to music, can i steal those too? cant do mush listening w/o speakers.

Im not sure why people think intellectual property and digital files is any different from stealing something physical. you would never (i hope) say to yourself "music should be free" then walk into hmv and take a cd.

the real problem is people think theres some moral grey area in stealing. the internet has just made it easy to steal and people lacking morals have jumped at the opportunity.

Hobbes was right.

I don't decide what is and isn't worth stealing based on price, I think the price of some things are far beyond what they should be in order for the average person to enjoy the full extent of. This is all personal opinion and I won't sway yours, but in my eyes, there is most certainly grey area to be found within stealing; not based on how expensive something is. More of the principal of WHAT you're stealing is.

So you decide whats worth stealing based on your own personal set of moral boundries? what if everyone did that? but what if their moral boundries werent as robust as yours? and they decided that all your stuff should be free to them? if you steal why should i not steal from you?

this is why weve created a legal framework to make these decisions collectively as a society, beacuse if everyone just decided for themsleves, the world would be a much worse place. and the courts have decided and the result is YES IT IS STEALING.

can you let us all know whats ok to steal or do i , like you, just decide for myself?

This goes back to the issue of you clumping stealing music into the same category as stealing anything else. I've done my best to try and make you understand why there are grey areas regarding theft. If you don't understand now then you never will, and this conversation between us should probably just stop here. I do respect and understand your side, however.

[pete_bubonic]

If you start producing music in this day and age and expect to make money solely doing that, then you're fooling yourself. Produce music for movies/games/television, that's really the only sure-fire way to make money at JUST producing without playing live in my opinion.

You have completely ignored everything I wrote in the post that you quoted! I've stated several times that no good musician makes music to make money, but that doesn't mean you can deny them the right to make money from music. And the syncing/licencing is the only sure-fire way because of the lengths people like yourself go to to pirate music! Please don't be so blinkered to think otherwise.

I'm not going to stop making music just because people aren't paying money for it, and neither should anyone who's serious.

this is completely irrelevant to every point made in this thread so far.

[D3ATHSTEP]

I'm going to break down your statement, not to be picky, just to clarify my point.

I'm not understanding your comment, because I'm broke as hell and I can produce music.

Presumably as a hobby, and no offence intended and this is assumption, I guess that your music probably sounds like it's at hobby/amatuer level. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, if it works for you then more power to you. But that's an incredibly individual thing. And certainly does not and should not apply to everyone.

it doesn't really cost money to produce music if you learn your craft as you said.

Of course it does, the instruments, the software, the hardware (unless you steal these as well - therefore screwing over untold levels of the music industry and further). The years spent on getting your sound to a good level. Paying for space to produce in or practice if you're a band. Soundproofing. Monitoring systems. The office chair you sit on. All cost money.

I make music for people to hear, not for the money.

ALL good musicians do. this does not negate the need to make money from it if you're putting hours , days, months and years into it.

I'd put on a live performance for the money, however. Also because performing live is fun.

Again, an incredibly narrow view and relative only to you as an individual, plenty of people may not want to perform ala Burial or Toasty.

If someone needs to see a profit for producing music, then they're not totally passionate about producing music.

Sorry man, but that's a ridiculous statement to make. A good artist who spends full time working days in the studio, creating an album that they are happy with on an integral creative level is due a wage, they have the basic right to sell thier music and see not PROFIT but a LIVING from the fruits of thier labour. Otherwise who would they be able to produce that album in the first place?!

In my opinion, real musicians make music because it's fun, makes them feel good, and allows them to vent/express emotions via an art form.

No one in their right mind would say otherwise, but this is not exclusive from having the right to earn a living from your work, irrespective of how much you enjoy it. Just because an electronic engineer fucking LOVES more than anything in the world, soldering transistors into TVs, making the best TVs his little hands can; is he denied the right expect a wage and the right to sell his product because it's his for of artistic expression?

Al of those things are an initial spend; most of which yes, you CAN indeed torrent. The hardware is the only thing you need to pay for. As long as you can find a decent computer with at least four gigs of RAM you should be all right for the most part when it comes to production. However, my point was that AFTER you buy all these things, you don't need to keep spending money to make music. You already have all the tools, all you need to spend is time from that point on. I'm also not denying the right to getting paid for your work, I simply said that I personally don't care if I make money specifically from creating music. I don't even EXPECT to, and no one realistically should. Like I said, if I wanted to make money with it, I would perform live and/or compose for movies/games/other media. I'm not saying anyone's view here is WRONG, I'm simply expressing my personal view; as well as stating the FACT that it's pretty much come to the point where it's a pipe dream to expect to make decent money as a musician without performing live or scoring for other media. People don't have to AGREE with it, but it's how it is and most likely how it's going to stay for a long, long time. You need to adapt.

[garethom]

This goes back to the issue of you clumping stealing music into the same category as stealing anything else. I've done my best to try and make you understand why there are grey areas regarding theft. If you don't understand now then you never will, and this conversation between us should probably just stop here. I do respect and understand your side, however.

It's not an issue with us not understanding, it's just that we straight don't agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I don't know what to say to you any more man, to me, a lot of your views are bizarre, and it kind of comes across that you're trying to justify stealing somebody's hard work.

[D3ATHSTEP]

If you start producing music in this day and age and expect to make money solely doing that, then you're fooling yourself. Produce music for movies/games/television, that's really the only sure-fire way to make money at JUST producing without playing live in my opinion.

You have completely ignored everything I wrote in the post that you quoted! I've stated several times that no good musician makes music to make money, but that doesn't mean you can deny them the right to make money from music. And the syncing/licencing is the only sure-fire way because of the lengths people like yourself go to to pirate music! Please don't be so blinkered to think otherwise.

I'm not going to stop making music just because people aren't paying money for it, and neither should anyone who's serious.

this is completely irrelevant to every point made in this thread so far.

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

[D3ATHSTEP]

This goes back to the issue of you clumping stealing music into the same category as stealing anything else. I've done my best to try and make you understand why there are grey areas regarding theft. If you don't understand now then you never will, and this conversation between us should probably just stop here. I do respect and understand your side, however.

It's not an issue with us not understanding, it's just that we straight don't agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I don't know what to say to you any more man, to me, a lot of your views are bizarre, and it kind of comes across that you're trying to justify stealing somebody's hard work.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

[garethom]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

[cityzen]

Get a Job>>Invest earnings in something worthwhile>>Support what gives you so much enjoyment>>Enable more of your favourite music to be made>>Be a responsible and conscientious adult>>Buy Vinyl>>Be Proud of your collection>>Look forward to digging out records to play your kids what you were listening to at their age>>Choose Life>>Choose a fucking big television, choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players and electrical tin openers

I lol'd

[Juice Terry]

So in summary, you're skint, you don't feel that you should have to work for what you want and more than that other people should work so you can have it for free and they should be happy because you're listening to it?

Sounds like you're pretty messed up to be honest.

[pete_bubonic]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

Ditto.

Because you have a hobby making music in your bedroom and support piracy, professional full time musicians should be expect to not make an income from their hard work and time is illogical at best and massively disrespectful and offensive to the artists you supposedly support to anyone else.

[D3ATHSTEP]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

It can go around the world legally, but your audience will be significantly reduced because not everyone can afford it. You're allowed to disagree with me, I understand completely. Just seeing if anyone else here is like-minded with myself, which it's not looking like is the case at all! The point of this forum posting youtube links quite often still stands, however. If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

[scattybeanhead]

This goes back to the issue of you clumping stealing music into the same category as stealing anything else. I've done my best to try and make you understand why there are grey areas regarding theft. If you don't understand now then you never will, and this conversation between us should probably just stop here. I do respect and understand your side, however.

It's not an issue with us not understanding, it's just that we straight don't agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I don't know what to say to you any more man, to me, a lot of your views are bizarre, and it kind of comes across that you're trying to justify stealing somebody's hard work.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Like I said, I have enough shit to pay for, if I spent money on music each month based on how much I listen to, I would never have enough money to go out and enjoy myself with friends. It shouldn't be a trade off.

you are an absolute dick mate. absolutely no time for people like you.

also you do realise that artists and labels themselves put their material on youtube? this doesn't mean "please rip it for free because i charge so much for it", they're trying to promote their music, just the same as playing it on radio shows or in mixes. as for the second comment, if you can't afford to get an extra large meal then you get a happy meal, you don't just jump behind the counter and steal burgers because you don't have enough money. your whole attitude to the music scene absolutely disgusts me

EDIT:

If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

no it's not!!! do you really believe that everything on youtube is pirated material you fucking moron??? when you download it and appropriate the media then it becomes piracy

[D3ATHSTEP]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

Ditto.

Because you have a hobby making music in your bedroom and support piracy, professional full time musicians should be expect to not make an income from their hard work and time is illogical at best and massively disrespectful and offensive to the artists you supposedly support to anyone else.

It's entirely possible to make professional quality songs in a bedroom, I don't see what the environment you work in has to do with anything. I know Skrillex gets a lot of hate on here, but he makes his music on a Macbook Pro on his tour bus using headphones. So because I have a different opinion than you do, I'm not a professional? Not quite understanding what you're implying with that post.