london, dubstep and graff

[fused_forces]

we used to graff

[nodz]

Battle Gong, shut up. You mouth is full of shit.

Everything becomes more formulamatic over time, that's obvious. But the stuff you're sayin is the kind of stuff that comes out of someones mouth who has massively lost touch with what they're trying to talk about.

Everyone has inspiration, even all these writers you talk about from 30 years ago, you're old man ramblings are boring.

I haven't been into graff for a few years now, but tell me who anie; from NT, for example, has copied off?

Air.

[John Locke]

Battle Gong, shut up. You mouth is full of shit.

Everything becomes more formulamatic over time, that's obvious. But the stuff you're sayin is the kind of stuff that comes out of someones mouth who has massively lost touch with what they're trying to talk about.

Everyone has inspiration, even all these writers you talk about from 30 years ago, you're old man ramblings are boring.

I haven't been into graff for a few years now, but tell me who anie; from NT, for example, has copied off?

Air.

yeah, nice 2 meet u too. if its boring then dont read it

yes, everyone has inspiration, everyone copies...its what u do with it that matters, where u take it after

no ONE influence springs 2 mind thinkin of anie...but its still just letters on the side of a train with a fill in, an outline, 3d, clouds or whatever. not exactly broken the formula in any major way has he? u r lookin a this from a petty minded POV. anie might be important 4 uk graf now. but uk graf now is not important in the bigger picture.

people getting up tight and taking this personally cos they think im dissing their mates/heroes need to get some perspective. INSIDE the world of graf these people might seem original or whatever, but this is a blinkered way of looking at things. i'm talkin about people who leave a mark on history in general, not the history of graf in brighton, who change the entire course of culture.

the originators will always be remembered (even tho, obviously, they took influences from elsewhere), anie, cosa and almost any other comtemporary writer will be forgotten very shortly as they their impact on culture in the long run is next 2 zero. same goes 4 music, or anything else

[ozols man]

hmmm, i dont think dds will be forgotten in a very long time to be honest. they played to big a part in the uk scene. theres always gonna be a book on a library shelf or something, or somone documenting them and there contemporaries. and u mentioned music. have u not heard of classical? at the end of the day who knows wot were doing now? all of us sitting down knocking out tunes on reason and what not could be something of extreme cultural significance and we dont even realise it...

[John Locke]

ozols, the classical/reason comparisson is fine. totally agree that what we r doing now is of equal importance. but not everyone on reason will be remembered, only those who break new ground. not followers.

dds were important 2 uk graf. there will of course b traces of them "on library shelves" or whatever. but uk graf is not important to the world, and will b forgotten by all but a few with specialist interest.

only those who innovate (or at least market themselves succesfully as innovators) stand the test of time.

[spiro]

ozols, the classical/reason comparisson is fine. totally agree that what we r doing now is of equal importance. but not everyone on reason will be remembered, only those who break new ground. not followers.

dds were important 2 uk graf. there will of course b traces of them "on library shelves" or whatever. but uk graf is not important to the world, and will b forgotten by all but a few with specialist interest.

only those who innovate (or at least market themselves succesfully as innovators) stand the test of time.

but seriously, is the only thing of importance to stand the test of time ?
I dont believe in any reason for life, so all that matters to me is what I do with my time, and I think people need to think more on how to push their own limits, than on their influence on history !
After all we all dont mean shit in any picture bigger than 10 000 years !
Every each and one of us can anyway make a mark on our small little world to feel a little less lost in all the facin bullshit wars and fighting for more money!
Graff might not be new, innovative or rebellious, but to me it represents one of many small ways of trying to expand the extremely narrow-minded society we live in . . .

[Rob H]

dds were important 2 uk graf. there will of course b traces of them "on library shelves" or whatever. but uk graf is not important to the world, and will b forgotten by all but a few with specialist interest.

only those who innovate (or at least market themselves succesfully as innovators) stand the test of time.

So your saying the average joe will remember/have heard of dondi or taki 183 or whatever?

[John Locke]

ozols, the classical/reason comparisson is fine. totally agree that what we r doing now is of equal importance. but not everyone on reason will be remembered, only those who break new ground. not followers.

dds were important 2 uk graf. there will of course b traces of them "on library shelves" or whatever. but uk graf is not important to the world, and will b forgotten by all but a few with specialist interest.

only those who innovate (or at least market themselves succesfully as innovators) stand the test of time.

but seriously, is the only thing of importance to stand the test of time ?
I dont believe in any reason for life, so all that matters to me is what I do with my time, and I think people need to think more on how to push their own limits, than on their influence on history !
After all we all dont mean shit in any picture bigger than 10 000 years !
Every each and one of us can anyway make a mark on our small little world to feel a little less lost in all the facin bullshit wars and fighting for more money!
Graff might not be new, innovative or rebellious, but to me it represents one of many small ways of trying to expand the extremely narrow-minded society we live in . . .

yeah, agree with all u say, and without knowing how much longer the human race wil exist its difficult to comment with any accuracy on fame and so-called "progress", but the chances r that all but the most famous people of the last century (to b clear, I'm talking about Adolf Hitler, not the various members of the DDS) will b forgotten before long too...

the only bit of yr post that doesnt convince me is the last bit...how does graf expand narrow-minded society? its a way to have fun, its a learning experience, but improving society? I aint so sure. its an egotistical pass-time but nothing more now (and b4 anyone misunderstands what I'm saying, I STILL DO IT FROM TIME TO TIME: cos its fun)

over 20 yrs spent in graf has only convinced me that graf IS narrow-minded society. explain yrself...?

[spiro]

explain yrself...?

first out, dont misunderstand me, graff is indeed an egotistical pass-time . . .

I will try . . .
I think, without knowing shit about what happened in the minds of people 10 000 or 500 years ago, that one of the very few things that have changed in our way of experiencing the world around us is some more acceptance of things we dont understand . . . there is anyway "along way to go when you dont know where your going" like ed o.g. said . . .
and the later years have narrowed it down again, I think . . .
Possibly because the major reference now is economical growth, which in my opinion keeps people away from pushing their own boundaries, and therefor not accepting other peoples need for doing this. Now the main boundary people push is more money more power. This isnt new, but the technical evolution have given a lot of more people the extra time they need to not just eat and sleep, and thereby the possibility to push their own limits. But they dont !!!
And this is in my opinion, because so much energy is used to hide that possibility, because its easier to keep the power balance if people dont push their own limits. ... cost effectivity they call it ...
I think graff is one way to show people that there is other ways of thinking. The enormous amount of energy used only for doing something you want to master.
But as you have pointed out, there is a lot of people doing graff without pushing anything, but anyway I think its one of many ways to making people that see it, ask some questions instead of "throwing stones". . .
The big amount of propaganda used to make graff look bad, makes a lot less people ask the questions, but some do . . . ?

did this make any sense?
Always hard to write in english . . .

[John Locke]

yeah, mostly made a lot sense, and extra props for explaining in a second language too

also, yr post shows u r clearly an exception to the generalisitions ive made about writers in this thread...

i know what u saying. and i suppose its partly true. and maybe ive believed that a little more in the past than i do now. but isnt this just something of a lie we tell ourselves to justify our actions? i got a lot of sympathy for all the situationist ideas that have made a come back (tho for a critique of sitationism there's a good chapter in Straw Dogs by John Gray), and yeah making people snap out of their everyday routine and take in their surroundings is a good thing. but A> im not sure people pay any attention anymore (banksy is so much a part of london now that i dont think anyone even notices its their anymore), and B> if u really want 2 make a difference there r much more effective ways 2do it.

my experience of graf taught me so much and i wouldnt b who i am now if it wasnt for it (for better or for worse), but there comes a time when u got to move on 2 other things. well, its not een that u have 2, I just think it show intelligence if u do. but thats my opinion.

i dont using words like immature, or tellin people 2 grow up (partuclarly as i dont really get why we value maturity so much. whats so fucking good about it?) but at the same time u cant go out an bomb and the next day complain the trains dont run on time or whatever. u cant use rebellion against 'the system' (wtf does that mean?) as an excuse for playing games. games r cool. and i think graf can even serve an important role in society in giving the marginalised an identity and purpose, a feeling of belonging and value...4me it was my school, my family, my training ground...and cool if u wan2 continue doing it into yr 20s, 30s, 40s and beyond, but jus dont complain about social services not bein up2 scratch, or that the lift in yr apartment block stinks of piss, or that u r still on the waiting list for medical treatment, cos with every reach u sign away the right to complain


anyway, the things u talk about r thing that particularly intrest me, things i think about a lot...but i really dont c graf as any kind of answer.

"one of the very few things that have changed in our way of experiencing the world around us is some more acceptance of things we dont understand" - I like this line, i think its quite true...oh only wish it were even more true...

b careful in assuming that the situation in affluent europe is the situation for the majority of the world's population though. the reality for most people in the world is not a dilema about what to do with their spare time or disposable income, but still how to survive on a day to day basis.

anyway, i gettin away from the point. but basically it seems u got a good brain...just dont waste it on graffiti if u want 2 make a difference. graffiti was once the avantgarde, the ultimate expression of a time and a place, but it wasnt our time and place. we hav 2 invent our own...

[spiro]

my experience of graf taught me so much and i wouldnt b who i am now if it wasnt for it (for better or for worse), but there comes a time when u got to move on 2 other things.
...
and i think graf can even serve an important role in society in giving the marginalised an identity and purpose, a feeling of belonging and value...4me it was my school, my family, my training ground...

"they like to feel the chrome in their hands"

YESYES feeling thisone! And I had to move on, mainly to test new ways of killing time, but also because the norwegian pigs haven't given up to make graff look like one of their main problems. They still today try to make it look like a major problem for our citizens . . . war is going strong!
and thats bullshit!

anyway, the things u talk about r thing that particularly intrest me, things i think about a lot...but i really dont c graf as any kind of answer.

b careful in assuming that the situation in affluent europe is the situation for the majority of the world's population though. the reality for most people in the world is not a dilema about what to do with their spare time or disposable income, but still how to survive on a day to day basis.

I tried to make it short . . . so I tried to keep out of a lot of complex things like this
Its so weird that a so small part of the worlds population actually dictates the rest, but hey thats humans for ya!
and graff isnt no answer no doubt, but sometimes you just have to try something cause its so much insanity out there that people celebrate every day . . .

this is the first time I´v had a discussion on graff that is a bit more than trying to fight back all the propaganda. bigup!
And in the end we´re facin agreeing !!! whatafac

[nodz]

ozols, the classical/reason comparisson is fine. totally agree that what we r doing now is of equal importance. but not everyone on reason will be remembered, only those who break new ground. not followers.

dds were important 2 uk graf. there will of course b traces of them "on library shelves" or whatever. but uk graf is not important to the world, and will b forgotten by all but a few with specialist interest.

only those who innovate (or at least market themselves succesfully as innovators) stand the test of time.

I do kind of want to agree with your ideas, but I don't really understand where you're coming from. You're saying that; since something is invented, everything (no matter how different in sound, style, whatever) is just copied. So essentially music has been just a list of toys since the classical days?

Being orignal in an established scene (in my oppinion) is about doing something new enough that no one has done it before, but keeping enough elements of the old that people recognise it.

Obviously starting a complete new scene and culture single-handedly is full on originality, but if you've got love for the old culture and want to be a part of it, then why not get involved? If you're doing something different enough that you get a name, isn't that originality?

But, after all this text, I will point out that I don't actually care. I haven't done graffiti for years and i'm not exactally bothered if people have a differing oppinion from me on the matter.

[John Locke]

ozols, the classical/reason comparisson is fine. totally agree that what we r doing now is of equal importance. but not everyone on reason will be remembered, only those who break new ground. not followers.

dds were important 2 uk graf. there will of course b traces of them "on library shelves" or whatever. but uk graf is not important to the world, and will b forgotten by all but a few with specialist interest.

only those who innovate (or at least market themselves succesfully as innovators) stand the test of time.

I do kind of want to agree with your ideas, but I don't really understand where you're coming from. You're saying that; since something is invented, everything (no matter how different in sound, style, whatever) is just copied. So essentially music has been just a list of toys since the classical days?

Being orignal in an established scene (in my oppinion) is about doing something new enough that no one has done it before, but keeping enough elements of the old that people recognise it.

Obviously starting a complete new scene and culture single-handedly is full on originality, but if you've got love for the old culture and want to be a part of it, then why not get involved? If you're doing something different enough that you get a name, isn't that originality?

But, after all this text, I will point out that I don't actually care. I haven't done graffiti for years and i'm not exactally bothered if people have a differing oppinion from me on the matter.

ok. to clarify: i aint saying all music is copied. by no means (and even if i were I wouldnt b saying it was all copied from classical...thats just 1 of many influences). u misunderstood that bit. I'm simply saying that slavishly runnin with a style isnt contributing much to the 'enrichment of culture'.

or 2 put it anoher way, having love for a culture doesnt hav2 mean keepin it the same. we getting into a discussion here which is more than about just graf or music or whatever; the idea that a culture is static and should remain 'pure' is BNP (and other izan) territory. this is the kind of bullshit that they base their whole philosophy on.

but the truth is cultures and languages have always been a mix, gradually transforming and shifting, evolving. never static, always a combination of different elements, never just appearing from nowhere as some virgin phenomena. l

ook at the english language. if u ever tried reading shakespeare or chaucer or something (dont) its fucking unintelligable. the language has changed so much over the years. think about how many words r used by people under the age of like 30 or something in britain that come from jamaican patois, US slang etc. these have become just part of the english language now, but 20 years ago nobody wouldve known what u were on about.

this seems like i gone off on one, but what i talking about is the resistence to change and the idea that having love for something means keeping it the way it is. and this is like a fundamental ideal for graffiti. anyone trying to move it on is considered not hardcore, or not a real writer. the first writers didnt know they were writers. and likewise the first dubstep artist didnt know they were dubstep. i first came accross what is now known as dubstep when buying hip hop and DnB. i'd always liked somethign about garage, its soul, but considerd most of it just too cheesy and commercial, but then i found rougher stuff by benny ill, oris jay and other wierd ruffer shit and would pick some of this up. but sum friends were like " why u buying that shit". an no doubt this wldve been the reaction from most people both inside garage (urgghh, nasty dark music) and also DnB (sell out girlie riddems).

getting back 2 the start of this thread. my original comment was just sumthing flippant and stupid to wind people up more than anything. expressing my general disillusionment with graf (a culture i still "got love for" despite all the dissing) and writers in particular. but my complaint abot graf is a real one: to be a "real" graffiti writer u got to be backwards lookin and want to preserve the state of things. when the reality is the only way to keep a culture alive is to allow it 2 grow.

yes, I'm saying everything is copied from somewhere. this is obvious. but here are different ways to copy. saying "them flics in graphotism rock, let me do some of that shit" and then runnin styles we all seen before cos anything else "just aint hardcore" is not contrinìbuting. likewise listening purely to dubstep and saying "I like skream, let me do sum of that shit" doesnt take u anywhere. copying is a good thing, but u got 2 at least be copying and combining more than one element for something new to come out (Jungle = hiphop meets dancehall/grime = hip hop meets techno/dubstep = garage meets dub...or whatever...its not so rigid anyway) and then u got 2 have the balls to not give a fuck what others think and just go with it, wherever it leads u.

I dont see much of this happening in graf. and I never did.

yo, and finally, theres no reason why u should agree. or even give a fuck. this is just my opinion. get yr own fucking opinion ha ha (or at least copy 2 different opinions)

[nodz]

but the truth is cultures and languages have always been a mix, gradually transforming and shifting, evolving. never static, always a combination of different elements, never just appearing from nowhere as some virgin phenomena.

That's what I was getting at though?

I understand what you're saying, but anie was just one example I used to as someone that taking something old and doing something new with it.

I think you're not even talkin about styles though, are you? I think you're talkin about the ground level concepts behind something? But give me some suggestions in what way you could massively change the basic concepts behind graff?

[John Locke]

yo, if i got the impression we were not in agreement from the outset perhaps it had something 2 do with yr first post ; ) but yeah, i think we r basically talkin about the same things..

yeah, anie perhaps more than many. but less than some. he's known for a reason, so he must b doing something right. but its a matter of degree. and of opinion: personally it never made my jaw drop. of value within british graf, but not of any lasting impact. get me?

obviously if i knew how to revolutionise graf I wld do it myself rather than posting the idea on here. but maybe i can point out a couple of people that done it over the years and how (i'm not gonna surprise u much with this list but they r obvious examples bcos we r talkin about people who left a mark):

whoever it was that decided to put their name on the outside of the train really changed everything. but perhas doesnt count cos i dont reckon anyone dissed on the idea

phase 2 or who ever it was that first stuck 3d on his letters

might be wrong, but i think it was like hondo or slave or someone who 1st stuck a cloud on his piece

Jon156 who went completely abstract

risk and slick from LA who brought new skills and a more illustrative (instead of cartoon) approach to 'characters' (the first i was aware of, but maybe others came before?)

i think i already mentioned people in europe like lokiss who broke lettering away from the confines of an outline

or delta who made it 3 dimensional (only to see his innovation copied by like most of germany)

Os Gemeos in brasil who took it in like a folk art direction

Twist who took the street to the gallery without losing anything of the dirt (succeeding where the first wave of gallery writers failed in the early 80s with their horrible sanitized airbrushed canvasses)

some of these examples i like what they did, in others i dont, or was personally indifferent. but i can see that they changed the course of graf with their inovations. there's bound to b loads more. but nearly all of these will have been dissed on massively at the time for not doing it like yr supposed to do

[RubiconMan]

boy, u lot been at it!
only thing i have to say is that yes, i think dubstep music compliments a writers brain.

[John Locke]

oh shit, Nodz, what with all the backward and forwarding i kind of forgot the point of what i was building up to. sorry:

my point is this, the examples ive given were all people who changed graf, but as important as these events were to graf itself, they didnt actually create a new genre (apart from maybe one or two?), just changed an exisiting one.

what I'm driving at is this: if u r forward thinking and open 2 experimenting then u dont look to revolutionise the course of graf, or transform dubstep, you strive to revolutionise ART as a whole, or transform the course of all MUSIC. you dont limit yrself 2being creative just inside one genre, you move between sounds and cultures.

its almost that by saying "I'm a writer" you've already lost the plot, or by saying "Im a dubstep producer" uve already decided not to break any new ground (in music that is, although within dubstep itself u might b hugely influential).

burial and horsepower have been 2 of the most influential acts of the scene, but i'd be surprised if they even refer to themselves as dubstep (correct me if i'm wrong though)...they just make music and r open to whatever direction this takes them in

so if we were looking to transform graf we woud already have failed just by limiting ourselves to graf. what we should be doing is using our background in graffiti and mixing that with whatever else we have to give, and seeing what new comes out of it. we might not have a name for it. people might dis on it at 1st, but others might copy later. and a new genre is born.

enuf tho. i aint gonna creating ANYTHING new by spending my life on here

nice talking 2u

safe...

[ozols man]

i see wot ur saying about the breaking boundaries thang in music battle gong. i personally when i make music try and make something that all selectors can play while at the same time with the corporation of others try and push a new sound... if u reference bare scenes and genres in ur music, my philosophy is u can then unite them.. if that makes sense.

but come on now when were talking about pushing boundaries burial doesnt come to mind. hes like the fucking andy warhol of garage or something. he makes interesting music but it only sounds like it does cos he doesnt have the audacity to try and make people dance... its "oh look at me im such an outsider and really introspective" kinda music

[dick jones]

gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[John Locke]

gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pure fuckin genius.

I spend 3 pages tryin 2 argue that writers r small minded dickheads, and yet u manage to illustrate my point perfectly with just one word.

thanks




ozols, whether u like burial or not he is (or will b) influential. but yeah, i agree there's more to it than just innovating. right place right time plays a big part. but i already said more than enuf on the subject of burial here:

http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 151#383151