gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

yeager · Post by **yeager** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:53 am

i would like to highly recommend researching every thing you can on bob katz k-system. this has changed my life and is a middle finger to those on the wrong side of the loudness war. here is a good start.

http://www.aes.org/technical/documentDo ... m?docID=65

macc · Post by **macc** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:02 am

Totally agreed on that - but it's not really what this thread is (or has become) about.

This is about keeping conservative levels at the mix stage in ordr to retain headroom, make your mix process/workflow easier and more efficient, and maintain the highest quality without concern for final loudness - only inherent mix BEEF.

yeager · Post by **yeager** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:15 am

yeager · Post by **yeager** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:56 am

Macc wrote:Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

macc. how do you suggest is the best way to treat sub,and distorted bass separate if i am layering the distorted sounds over the sub in the same synth so they are one. and modulating them together? hope this makes sense and you follow me. my apologies for steering off the post.. my English should be better.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:34 am

Use prefade sends to 2 groups.

THESE NUMBERS ARE APPROXIMATE AND MAY VARY (I shouldn't even have to say that but some people seem to take a number and think it is gospel

)

Gp1 - LP eq at ~ 80-90Hz

Gp2 - HP eq at ~ 180-200Hz

Both those groups get routed to group 3, 'bass out' or whatever.

This kills 2 birds with one stone - you can treat the distorted bit individually with chorus or flange or whatever other shit without affecting the sub, eq it so that it doesn't sound shit etc etc.

But also, notice that there is a gap here - the two regions have a gap in the 100 - 200 Hz region. This takes care of that irritating muddy SHIT (that is all over most of the tracks I get from round here) with distorted basslines that drowns out the kick. If your bass note has a fundamental at 50Hz and you distort it (foe 'warmth') then straight away a good amount of your sub bass energy goes > 100Hz, which is often exactly where your kick is. So by distorting low bass you are not only reducing/sharing out your available sub energy to places it sounds worse, but drowning out your kick drum and muddying up your tune - unless you take appropriate measures.

Further up the spectrum things don't need to be so loud to be audible (Fletcher Munson), the upper group will have a much lower peak level, and you'll fnd you can often add signifcant amount of ~200Hz with gentle wid slopes to 'warm things up' without turning everything to mud.

FWIW the above 'first harmonic drowns out kick' problem is the number 1 problem in mixes I get from round here, and it is a BITCH to fix.

Steve AC23 · Post by **Steve AC23** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:39 am

notching out rooms for kicks and snare <3

yeager · Post by **yeager** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:09 pm

very much appreciated macc.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:33 pm

No bother

I don't mean to harp on btw

djake · Post by **djake** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:38 pm

Macc wrote:No bother

I don't mean to harp on btw

macc your an legend!!!!

Littlefoot · Post by **Littlefoot** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:01 pm

discussion of how many dbs to mix to....

wasssttteee

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:44 pm

Your loss

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 pm

headroom ---> better-sounding, albiet quieter mixes---> more space for mastering engineer to do his/her magic---->better sounding record. seriously.

stapleface · Post by **stapleface** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:17 pm

TeReKeTe wrote:headroom ---> better-sounding, albiet quieter mixes---> more space for mastering engineer to do his/her magic---->better sounding record. seriously.

this.

Mad_EP · Post by **Mad_EP** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:15 am

TeReKeTe wrote:headroom ---> better-sounding, albiet quieter mixes---> more space for mastering engineer to do his/her magic---->better sounding record. seriously.

Truer words never spoken.

I mean, yeah- I use limiters & such... but only when trying out a new tune live. As soon as a label picks it up, I strip all that shit off and give them quiet, well mixed dubs.

jalfrezi · Post by **jalfrezi** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:42 pm

mad ep wrote:
TeReKeTe wrote:headroom ---> better-sounding, albiet quieter mixes---> more space for mastering engineer to do his/her magic---->better sounding record. seriously.

Truer words never spoken.

I mean, yeah- I use limiters & such... but only when trying out a new tune live. As soon as a label picks it up, I strip all that shit off and give them quiet, well mixed dubs.

so does this mean don't normalise the wave as well? you aren't adding any noise to it if it was all done in THE BOX. is it delving into geekdom about adding artifacts? i'm not deaf but really i can't hear any difference.

its still got the same relationship to itself just that there isn't 6db of nothing.

macc · Post by **macc** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:48 pm

WHY normalise it though? Why do you need to?

jalfrezi · Post by **jalfrezi** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:55 pm

Macc wrote:WHY normalise it though? Why do you need to?

i went to a studio once to get a tune mixed down without normalising and the engineer was saying we shouldn't have the tracks so quiet as when going out of the computer it adds noise.

does it actually cause problems when mastering? i would think they need it to be as loud as possible so that the noise level is as low as possible. not loud like brickwalling but just raising the level.

james fox · Post by **james fox** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:43 pm

Joe C wrote:discussion of how many dbs to mix to....

wasssttteee

why?

gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

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