Pitchfork July featuring...

[Sharmaji]

Just to go off on a tangent, in my head, this whole 'feminine pressure' thing pre-dates the UK 'ardcore nuum. You could even replace 'feminine' with 'pretty' or 'emotional.'

Rocksteady reggae is the 1st thing that comes to mind. '68 rudeboys singin in doo-wop falsetto about guns, knives, ghetto killings and survivor stories. Desmond Dekker and the Heptones especially, from "Johnny too Bad" to "I hold the Handle."

Even there, you've got that great disconnect of something clear and beautiful and sophisticated (vox and melody) with something raw and street (tougher-than-tough riddims from Soundimension and the skatellites).

so yeah, if we're calling it 'feminine pressure,' sure, that disconnect and all the other disconnects present in dubstep in 05--- halfspeed bass vs. doubltime rhythms, space vs. energy-- all those things are what i found immediately enticing... and dancefloors just ate it up.

But if you take away those seemingly unfit structures, then you get that either/or situation that i think everyone's been describing-- it's either ALL aggro or ALL wishy washy. clownstep vs. liquid, as martin mentioned.

The big divide, then, is that you do have an arm going all bro-ly masculine, but the other arm(s) of dubstep haven't given up the disconnect... or the push forward into uncharted territory. It's like you shouldn't even have to decide: one side is all wobble, aggro, and 117% masculine all the time; the other side is that, and the opposite, and everything inbetween--even the wobs.

I think it's great that everyone's finding the exciting disconnect in other places (as mentioned, funky, wonky, and other y's) but the truth is it hasn't left our world of 140; it just, for some inexplicable, pissed-off-boy-fueled reason, become obscured.

Is it really a london thing? You guys have always had a good way with 2nd-genning US music that was growing towards it's own end of hyper-sophistication (ie-- the beatles and stones re-inventing rock, or Northern Soul, on up to Funky giving an edge back to US house), but now that d&b has become it's own stepchild and dubstep is very much a definable commodity in the internet age, i wonder if we're on a 3rd generation-- comPLETELY devoid of ties to geography. Not just inspiration and not just aping styles-- i mean, totally beyond.

ie, the wicked underground hiphop coming out of ghana and burkina faso. or the dancehall we heard in sweden--in swedish!--last summer and just blew us away.

anyway.

the best dance music is all about mixin the pretty w/ the abrasive, and making it exciting on new levels. Why the world doesn't find THAT to be the enticing thing about dubstep, but rather they like the full-on aggy bits, beats the hell outta me.

[tranquera]

Simon Reynolds always talk about territoriality... Unfortunatelly this article below was written in portuguese... It have Simon quotes and Martin quotes too... Both heads write and say interesting things...

Simon Reynolds e o Hardcore Continuum

[harkaransg]

Glad the debate is being discussed in a civilised manner. Its been a long time coming. Blackdowns blog and pitchdforks columns have been hinting at the change in scene for a while now.

On a musical note Joy Orbison is a breath of fresh, and is providing me with hope that the music can progress in a direction that will engage me for longer. His tunes are bad, and that mix is sick aswell. Keep it up mate. The grevious realse is alot aswell.

Blackdown keeping things interesting as always.

[human?]

Just to go off on a tangent, in my head, this whole 'feminine pressure' thing pre-dates the UK 'ardcore nuum. You could even replace 'feminine' with 'pretty' or 'emotional.'

Rocksteady reggae is the 1st thing that comes to mind. '68 rudeboys singin in doo-wop falsetto about guns, knives, ghetto killings and survivor stories. Desmond Dekker and the Heptones especially, from "Johnny too Bad" to "I hold the Handle."

Even there, you've got that great disconnect of something clear and beautiful and sophisticated (vox and melody) with something raw and street (tougher-than-tough riddims from Soundimension and the skatellites).

for sure, and for edm alls you gotta do is go back to things like freestyle...

as if hardcore wasnt built on Accapellas Anonymous & Ultimate Breaks & Beats....

i think that "feminine pressure" is a way to get around that (imho) the idea of the 'Nuum is linear & nationalist, and ultimately patriarchal model in and of itself.. that, while it does give interesting insight into a certain aspect of sound & culture development, its just another obsolete "super-genre"

Is it really a london thing? You guys have always had a good way with 2nd-genning US music that was growing towards it's own end of hyper-sophistication (ie-- the beatles and stones re-inventing rock, or Northern Soul, on up to Funky giving an edge back to US house), but now that d&b has become it's own stepchild and dubstep is very much a definable commodity in the internet age, i wonder if we're on a 3rd generation-- comPLETELY devoid of ties to geography. Not just inspiration and not just aping styles-- i mean, totally beyond.

ie, the wicked underground hiphop coming out of ghana and burkina faso. or the dancehall we heard in sweden--in swedish!--last summer and just blew us away.

i dont think its comPLETELY devoid of ties to geography, but i think that if you let geography DEFINE it for you youve missed the boat.

styles vary from town to town (in music, fashion, dialect etc etc... and its a beautiful thing!), and i do think that certain frequencies resonate in certain places at certain times, but i def think a bit of McLuhan injected into this is appropriate. with dubstep you can imho actually HEAR the global village... its absolutely been a worldwide and primarily internet based phenomena that has taken all the tools of technology and run with it...

whats going on imho, is way bigger than dubstep, and bigger than the Nuum...

i think its unfortunate that while on a personal quest to find the sound that moves them, people tend to transpose their own personal tuning into some sort of broad spectrum analysis....


the POWER in the music is how it relates, and how it relates us all to one another, and brings us together in these amazing dances... any attempt to erect boundries, with words (genre) or geography is imho counter productive and is in fact preserving some sort of hierarchical patriarchy and is the anti thesis of any sort of "feminine pressure"

[Whistla]

whats going on imho, is way bigger than dubstep, and bigger than the Nuum...

i think its unfortunate that while on a personal quest to find the sound that moves them, people tend to transpose their own personal tuning into some sort of broad spectrum analysis....


the POWER in the music is how it relates, and how it relates us all to one another, and brings us together in these amazing dances... any attempt to erect boundries, with words (genre) or geography is imho counter productive and is in fact preserving some sort of hierarchical patriarchy and is the anti thesis of any sort of "feminine pressure"

gotta say trying to relate Reynolds ideas about the Nuum to patriarchy is, to me at least, stretching things a bit far.
I see the Nuum as just the movement of a scene that started with hardcore and has moved thru various stages of development and splintering. Tying it to London is what i think is outdated. The explosion of Bassline in the north is a great example of this.
You seem to be discussing music in general and your personal experience of it, rather than relating it to all the diff scenes that have come, grown and splintered. All of them thought they were "the sound with the answer". If you start @ hardcore, it pulled people in from every scene going, from football rioters to nursery workers and i think thats the same idea and concept in action you feel and associate with this. to say that that idea is new misses the point. And to say that redefining of boundaries by producers and djs is counter productive i think again is a bit misleading as the music moves on and gets renamed as an when something noticeable develops. to just say sumthing is "music" is fine to a point, and as a personal view is a very liberated one. However this approach seems to lead to homogeny and "sameyness" as is evidenced when you go to the vast majority of dubstep nights nowdays.
I cant survive a dance where i dont like a single tune, and if a new name arrives that better fits my ear then i will happy use that to describe it as using the old name becomes obsolete.
hope i made some sense haha

btw, really like the idea of a balance of feminine pressure and the swinging back and forth of the use of vocals. nice on that 1.

also, back to the article, great mix!

P.S Gotta say this is one of the most enjoyable threads we've had here for a long time, so big up everyone and Martin for bringing the discussion to the fore

[human?]

gotta say trying to relate Reynolds ideas about the Nuum to patriarchy is, to me at least, stretching things a bit far.
I see the Nuum as just the movement of a scene that started with hardcore and has moved thru various stages of development and splintering.

thats exactly what im saying tho.... while yeh, i suppose patriarchy and all that implies is a bit harsh, its still the model...

so and so begat so and so, and so and so begat so and so and so on and so forth.

while what i see going on is much more web like... fractal in its nature...

You seem to be discussing music in general and your personal experience of it, rather than relating it to all the diff scenes that have come, grown and splintered. All of them thought they were "the sound with the answer". If you start @ hardcore, it pulled people in from every scene going, from football rioters to nursery workers and i think thats the same idea and concept in action you feel and associate with this. to say that that idea is new misses the point.

i cant start @ hardcore im from nyc, and like blackdown sees london i see ny... what you describe above could be Hiphop... and its the self similar nature that looks fractal to me...

And to say that redefining of boundaries by producers and djs is counter productive i think again is a bit misleading as the music moves on and gets renamed as an when something noticeable happens. to just say sumthing is "music" is fine to a point, and as a personal view is a very liberated one. However this approach seems to lead to homogeny and "sameyness" as is evidenced when you go to the vast majority of dubstep nights nowdays.
I cant survive a dance where i dont like a single tune, and if a new name arrives that better fits my ear then i will happy use that to describe it as using the old name become obsolete.
hope i made some sense haha

lol, yeh man, you make sense to me, i just disagree with certain points

im not particularly interested in redefining boundaries as i am in dissolving them. i think the sameyness comes FROM the boundaries being defined, rather than what im saying..

im not worried about homogeneous music at all, because my experience on the ground completely says otherwise... theres all sorts of diverse and forward thinking sounds, not to metion a huge variety of every sort of throwback... i hear "dubstep" thats called "electro" and "jungle" thats called "dubstep", "dancehall" tahts called "funky" and on and on....

i think its this constant defining and redefining that LEADS to the stagnation people are hearing in "dubstep"... confusing the map with the territory... ie the "post-dnb" kids think dubstep is *this* and blackdown isnt feeling it cause to him dubstep is *this* .... but whatever anyone thinks, dubstep IS still just a word. not the people OR the music.

genres can be usefull tools, but they are just tools. and when i say counter productive i dont at all mean the producers & djs doing their thing, in whatever style (its the producers and djs who are actually light years ahead of any wordy discussion we could possibly have)... usually the defining stuff is music stores & journalists...

[Whistla]

yeh i hear ya
i think tho that the naming convention comes after the fact in a lot of ways. like you say media etc...
but i think overal its the Nuum just doing its thing, swinging along and parts of it getting named. and thats what happened to dubstep. pretty much once the name was there the scene started going downward imho.
but i think not having any names is also a problem in itself, as you just end up with a mess of a night with no conhesion. and you dont get the brief moments where a few producers are doing similar things and making sumthing one-off and exciting. i dont wanna hear (like you say) electro thats dubstep, or dancehall with people calling it funky. i know what i wanna hear in my head and try to marry that as best as possible with whatever is going on in clubland and the brief flowering of names helps you to work your way thru the map.
Its a hard one, but the Nuum will roll on, and adopt new names as an when.
i think people are over protective of "dubstep" like its there own little brainchild and they wanna keep it for themselves and feel like what they got into is not the dubstep scene they tried to make and create. But thats the nature of the Nuum. It moves on and progresses, once a definition is set down, it's set down, but the Nuum doesnt stop, it keeps evolving and you either are one of the people to whom that speaks, or your one of the people to whom a more regulated and formulaic type of music works better for and you stay with it. Its the way its been since Larry Levan & the Paradise Garage and everything since be it in the UK or USA, or Europe or whatever.

[human?]

just gotta say, i ahve absolutely nothing against style & selection, its what its about for me as a DJ, and as a promoter when i do that....

of course its important to slect a cohesive lineup, and select a set that makes sense as a whole....

my only gripe is when the emphasis turns into division, when really whats going on is unity... or, if its not unity, then weve totally missed out of the powerful potential of the music.. i mean, we dont all gotta dig everything BUT its in the musics we can find common grounds, its right there staring us in the face...



like, if i have to read about "post-dnb" and "post-dubstep" for the next year ima flip out lol.... such ugly phrases to me.... im still a Hiphop Junglist who loves dubstep... and garage and wonky and funky and....

[paul updat]

It's interesting that the general consensus seems to be that there are only really 2 sides of this 'dubstep split' - the jump-up/wobble/hype that Caspa & Rusko rep and then everything else apart from that which seems to be percieved as real dubstep.

I think the jump-up has it's time and place, it's great as a form of dance music (literally) to a lot of people. I wouldn't want to listen to it all the time, so I don't. This is what is great about Dubstep - we have such a diverse genre of dramatically different tunes.

A lot of dubstep that has taken the opposite direction to the hype stuff - the ultra minimal, experimental, funky stuff - I cannot stand. It sounds like a lot of it is experimental for the sake of being different. Pretentious is probably the best word I can use.

[slothrop]

my only gripe is when the emphasis turns into division, when really whats going on is unity... or, if its not unity, then weve totally missed out of the powerful potential of the music....

But is it really unity going on if we've got this situation where some people would rather have their fingernails pulled out than go out to a night full of brutal metallic wobble and some people think a night full of brutal metallic wobble is the best thing since sliced bread. Isn't it just papering over the cracks that are already there to pretend there aren't basically two different scenes going on?

It's one thing to appreciate the interconnectedness of the music, it's another to say that we must present a united front even if we fundamentally want to hear different stuff when we go out. I actually think the reason that a lot of people hate tearout wobble so much is that it's something that they think of as taking over the scene that they're part of, and a lot of them would be more receptive and appreciative if they saw it as something entirely seperate. For instance, I can appreciate the odd happy hardcore tune, but I'd if everytime I went to a dubstep night I heard almost nothing but happy hardcore I'd probably start to hate it as a genre. It's not rational, but it seems to be the way people think.

[corpsey]

Nice column, pretty positive stuff really.

all the DJs you're talking about are (outside of 'straight' funky DJs i.e. Mak 10, Marcus) the DJs I'm checking for nowadays.

[bunzer0]

what I do miss a lot personally in dubstep origins is the fact that for once the nuuum was bringing a total different purpose in the dance.
I mean before dubstep, from hardcore, jungle, d&b, breaks, garage,... everything was made to get the dancing crowd exploding.
When dubstep came and when it was played on appropriate sound systems it was the opposite purpose... implosion.
That's for me the original spirit which is nearly gone because of all those heavy metal, wobble, generic stuff
cause yes explosion is back and now after the 2003-2007 period it sounds all boring to me.

You can have many explanations to that, like for instance the smoke ban in UK which is leading people to harder drugs so ofc to energetic explosions rather than deep implosions when we were all spliffin and meditating on bass weight... And am speaking from both the crowd or producers perspective...

I also think the rest of the world soundsystems weakness leaded original producers to make bits with basslines than u could hear on every crappy systems cause they were probably fed up to bring deepness on weak systems having less reactions from the crowd than in the UK.

Sure a dirty mid range wobble can be heard even on an ipod or laptop, not a deep 50hz sub or even below.

So in that perspective which is not directly musical, I mean smoking ban is more a social explanation and crappy systems is more a cultural issues can also explain a lot of things, at least from what I saw personally since day 1, from the very first UK and European dubstep raves to what we get now.

I make the link to cultural issues with soundsystems as a key thing in dubstep evolution cause I do believe that soundsystem culture is unique in UK because of the big Jamaïcan community there and the way it is nicely integrated to all the UK people or most of them. Very unique phenomena.

Sure the marketing thing is also an axis.
Wobbles are sailing more than deepness as far as I know and according to many labels input...
And here we are linking back to the post d&b thing, as yes people are more keen to jump on aggressive tunes than to meditate on sub weight just because, I think it reminds them d&b (for the oldest ones) or propose an alternative to d&b (for kids).

So I dunno if am clear enough, but what I mean is u can find relevant reasons in socio cultural fields, maybe even more in the musical creation itself to understand the evolution of a sound in the nuuuuuuum

[human?]

lol, its soooooo fractal...

this isnt what happened to jungle? i mean, 93-94 Jungle wasnt all about choppage and darkness, you had the bassweight vibes, the feminine pressure etc... the sounds sped up tho, got darker, and Junglists migrated into garage and eventually you have..... dubstep?

no?

just nowadays the cycle has turned into a few weeks lol...


i dunno, maybe im nuts. but not once in my recent memory have i not been able to find new music that im into, SOMETHING about a party that ive enjoyed...

i played on the same stage as hype, keoki & mark farina saturday, MC'd for Mundo on monday, and am gonna host for enduser/kj sawka & concord dawn tonight... and like... it all works lol...


i guess what im getting at, dont worry about what to call it, if its dope & it makes sense, its dope and it makes sense.... find other people who enjoy what you enjoy, and when you encounter somebody whos sounds you arent feeling, please try and find the common ground that IS there... post-GENRE thinking...


fuck your genre

[addicted]

everyone seems to be overly worried about where dubstep is going and that is counter - productive, people need to relax and just make the music, cause all these attempted definitions like 'clownstep' (disgusting word) and 'liquid' are just hindering creativity in the scene. especially as blackdown wants to regulate clownstep because its not how he wants dubstep to go, like its his scene - if rusko and caspa wern't making the shit they do someone else would, just leave them be. everyone should just relax and focus on making their sound the best it can be.

btw funky is just a collective name for the fresh 130 bpm tunes made by new uk producers in the south of england and similar sounding tunes which mak10 and marcus nasty play no-one in funky claims their type sound has never been heard before.

[dq]

before dubstep, from hardcore, jungle, d&b, breaks, garage,... everything was made to get the dancing crowd exploding.
When dubstep came and when it was played on appropriate sound systems it was the opposite purpose... implosion. That's for me the original spirit which is nearly gone because of all those heavy metal, wobble, generic stuff cause yes explosion is back and now after the 2003-2007 period it sounds all boring to me.

Yes! That's it for me too, and part of the reason why the influence of funky has been so refreshing. Because it's about tunes that roll thru and you can get lost in them and they're for dancing, rather than just waiting for the next big drop. Too many dubstep DJ's are intoxicated by the adoration of a crowd when it reacts to a monster drop, and so rather than doing their jobs and building a set and making people dance they go for the quick fix.

[dq]

Also, this is the best thread we've had in here in a long time, so cheers to everyone involved, and to Martin.

[bandshell]

before dubstep, from hardcore, jungle, d&b, breaks, garage,... everything was made to get the dancing crowd exploding.
When dubstep came and when it was played on appropriate sound systems it was the opposite purpose... implosion. That's for me the original spirit which is nearly gone because of all those heavy metal, wobble, generic stuff cause yes explosion is back and now after the 2003-2007 period it sounds all boring to me.

Yes! That's it for me too, and part of the reason why the influence of funky has been so refreshing. Because it's about tunes that roll thru and you can get lost in them and they're for dancing, rather than just waiting for the next big drop. Too many dubstep DJ's are intoxicated by the adoration of a crowd when it reacts to a monster drop, and so rather than doing their jobs and building a set and making people dance they go for the quick fix.

Agree with this, the tension and flow has been lost, the constant flow of energy isn't there, it's just drops and lulls now.

[oxide]

cant express happines about funky and funky influence in dubstep right now

[deamonds]

@ DQ, I have to agree with what you wrote, regarding the rolling element of funky & its sonic progression through a DJ Set. The tunes people are building now, with drops in succession, litterally 1 swtichup drops, are keeping a tribal element into the dance. The last Dirty Canvas was almost like some sort of conga party once Scratcha & Roska touched deck (even though i knew every tune that dropped). This is definately the aspect of the sound that has intrigued me the most. The rolling kick up to the drop (used in jungle/dnb & now too frequently in d) sounds so dated and un-original. Alex Bok-Bok's latest mix for lucky me has some great examples of this. Now also, I dont feel that it is too much a bpm thing any more, I dont even think its a genre thing, with some of the tunes coming from Hessle etc..Mosca, its more a structured definintion that will genre define the track, rather than its actual music elements. Its all up in the air at the moment, so fuck it lol

[Sharmaji]

Agreed on Q's sentiments about the drop getting far too much focus-- but i think that discussion's been going on for quite a while, i remember folks mentioning that in 06. Only thing is that it's just gotten more blatant.

With funky, with broken house, with a bunch of the Vibesquad-y midtempo stuff, you've got that whole "dubbage" thing that circle talks about, a sort of dub-inspired continuum of internal meditation AND full-on dance music. I guess we've reached a point where there's a much needed--and desired-place for that across tempos and styles. Rrrrrrrrrroll the beats!

thank god for that, right?

The irony here is that most of us really have no issue w/ wobbly bits at all. I mean, it's not like you assign the LFO to the cutoff and the non-student crowd gets pissed at you. It's more just the totemization of it...

AND

the absurdity that "that's" the sound that's been socially accepted as tearout, fuckoff heavy. Go back a few years and you've got Vex'd 's records, which are heavy as fuck and nearly wobble-free, and in the same month you've got, say... skream's remix of 'ancient memories,' or "kalawanji."

It's kinda unfortunate that the wobble is beginning to be accepted as only this structural, textural signifier of FUCK YEAH, THIS IS 'ARRRRRDDDD . Like you can't use that tool anymore unless it's for that energy... and we're accepting that, if you go there, you've lost the balance, and you're ONLY doing tearout shit.

At which point, dubstep just becomes breaks with a snare in the middle of the measure.. which is exceedingly lame. If you all need to describe a genre is description of the structure, your shit is weak.

I like this thread alot-- a bunch of heads together sorting out even just the language to describe where things are. There's definitely a shared energy here. Respect to all.