do you think humanity is worth saving?

[hayze99]

yeah maybe I wasnt clear on what I meant by "god-like egos"


I meant that we believe ourselves so powerful and so superior to everything else because of our technology, that our egos have risen so high we believe ourselves to be like gods..... that clearer?

I mean, just because some tnuc invented a television it dosnt mean we're the be all and end all of everything, the universe has been around a lot longer than us and its power is much greater than ours, we are its visitors.

we are 2% off from being chimpanzees for fuck sake. picture the scale.

ahhhhh see, youve expressed my point covertly!! lol

picture the scale!! exactly the type of abstraction & observation that makes us completely different than chimpanzees.

we arent at all visitors. we are its beautiful children, here to observe and participate in the glory, and the father mother mind has alot of plans for us!!!!

we ARE gods!!!!!

God with a big G? no.... but that name is unknowable...



*edit* i tried to go back and read the rest of the thread, but couldnt lol.. but early on theres comparisons of the human race to a cancer or virus... i dont think thats the case at all... unless you consider a fetus a cancer...

if you were to know nothing of human child birth, and all of a sudden were in the room while it happened, you may indeed be under the impression that the baby is killing the mother, and that something awful is happening.... which is exactly whats not happening... altho, sometimes women do die in childbirth...

point being, birth looks messy.... its bloody... lots of screaming, lots of pain.... but its still birth, not cancer.

I agree with you here. I think it's some melancholic poetic bullshit to take the self-loathing path that humans are indeed scum. Human's are fucking incredible. Some of the things that certain individuals have been able to accomplish have been down-right miracles. Some random ones:

• Travelling around the Earth in one journey
• Inventing computers/the internet
• Usain Bolt running 10m/s
• The LHC - unlocking the secrets of the universe
• Art - the Sistine chapel
• Driving - the fact that we can so easily pick up a rather complex skill, all over the world
• Men being able to hit the bullseye of a target from miles away
  and so on...

I just think it's sad that people have so little faith in our species. Yes, we are greedy, and we are selfish, but a) it's allowed us to survive and flourish, b) we don't know of ANY system which works differently. Considering that, in my opinion, we are just animals meant to pass on our genes, altruism in society has come a long way. Yes, there are many useless, horrific individuals out there; the state of affairs in the world is not perfect (but it is improving extremely rapidly) but that's just a side-effect of running a system so complex and varied. Stop looking at the bad examples of everything all the time, and look at the good. We have not raped this planet of it's resources; we have designed wonderful technology to take the lifeless, meaningless resources out of this rock we happen to be on, and use them to our own devices. Once we're done with this planet, we'll move onto a next one; because we're survivors, and we use what's around us. If we all came up with some ridiculous, pretentious view that we shouldn't be using the Earth's resources to sustain ourselves, we'd of died a long time ago.

You guys are like hoarders. You can't bear to think what might happen in future generations if we have to let the Earth go because of our own destruction. Think of the Buddhist principle of change. Everything dies, everything changes. Animals die, plants die and planets die. We're not going to be on the Earth forever. We're going to keep moving around, or simply perish. Nothing will ever stay the same, so let it go.

Think of Einsten, think of Leonardo Di Vinci. Humans fucking rock.

[human?]

man you are full of hope for a better future, as am I..... to get back to the original post, yeah I do think theres something worth saving.... but not as things are at the moment, something has to change dramatically for that to happen, wether it be from our own actions or the actions of nature/the universe.... because as I see it we are heading down a dark path to extiction.


I dont want to prolong this debate about the human race being "gods" or having "god-like egos".... I see your point, but I think its really is just based on hope, your alot more optimistic than I am man, and we do need that optimism, but we also need to realize we are raping our own mother in the ass at the moment, and she aint happy about it.... she is and will fight back for her existence, I dont think its that obscure to consider, look at natural disasters etc escalating more and more since records began... but we will continue to create a justification for this one way or another because thats our nature, and continue with our greed and destruction untill its too late... I dunno, maybe this 2012 shit will lead to another chance/ start. Then we will have to wake up and see our fortune, learn from our mistakes, be thankful and understand that we cannot live again the way we did in the past... we are all to disconnected for this to happen at the moment, but unfortunately it takes a tragedy to unite us, so maybe a "tragedy" on a global scale will unite us on a global scale....

lol, yeh i do often get accused of being hopeful, could be worse i suppose lol.. but i dont think it just a matter of opinion, i really do think there is evidence for my hope

like what i originally said when i jumped in, solar eclipses... so the apparent size of the moon in the sky is EXACTLY the same apparent size as the sun. which is why we have full solar eclipses. and thats something key that was revered since time immemorial.. and then you get to the 20th century, and low & behold, the arguably biggest idea (general relativity) of the time is proven (on a level at least) to be true, thanks to.... a solar eclipse.

one of the consequences of general relativity is gravitational lensing. which, along with the practically perfect position of our Sun in the galaxy, enable us to observe at distances that are more or less impossible to even comprehend...

which is where we then get this notion that we are merely a unimportant speck of accident in a vast blind cosmos... yet we forget how insanely perfect the conditions had to be for us to observe our smallness in the first place...

and it can go backwards in the other direction if youd like to travel along the presupposed creation myth of science... its that perfect size of the moon that creates the perfect conditions for biological life on earth....

i think the whole thing is alive. the entire universe. everything. alive. so is life rare? nah, life is everywhere, for real. BUT, is biological life capable of observation, abstraction, and conscious manipulation rare? id bet exceedingly...

and not only is it worth "saving", i believe we are exactly what the universe intended and have only just begun...

[bass hertz]

22 fucking pages!? I haven't read them, but If I get bored, maybe.

[cosmic_surgeon]

full solar eclipses says we are special.

reductionist materialist ideology is soooo 20th century

Teleological inferences based on single phenomena are so 5th century BC

[_v_]

yeah maybe I wasnt clear on what I meant by "god-like egos"


I meant that we believe ourselves so powerful and so superior to everything else because of our technology, that our egos have risen so high we believe ourselves to be like gods..... that clearer?

I mean, just because some tnuc invented a television it dosnt mean we're the be all and end all of everything, the universe has been around a lot longer than us and its power is much greater than ours, we are its visitors.

we are 2% off from being chimpanzees for fuck sake. picture the scale.

ahhhhh see, youve expressed my point covertly!! lol

picture the scale!! exactly the type of abstraction & observation that makes us completely different than chimpanzees.

we arent at all visitors. we are its beautiful children, here to observe and participate in the glory, and the father mother mind has alot of plans for us!!!!

we ARE gods!!!!!

God with a big G? no.... but that name is unknowable...



*edit* i tried to go back and read the rest of the thread, but couldnt lol.. but early on theres comparisons of the human race to a cancer or virus... i dont think thats the case at all... unless you consider a fetus a cancer...

if you were to know nothing of human child birth, and all of a sudden were in the room while it happened, you may indeed be under the impression that the baby is killing the mother, and that something awful is happening.... which is exactly whats not happening... altho, sometimes women do die in childbirth...

point being, birth looks messy.... its bloody... lots of screaming, lots of pain.... but its still birth, not cancer.

I agree with you here. I think it's some melancholic poetic bullshit to take the self-loathing path that humans are indeed scum. Human's are fucking incredible. Some of the things that certain individuals have been able to accomplish have been down-right miracles. Some random ones:

• Travelling around the Earth in one journey
• Inventing computers/the internet
• Usain Bolt running 10m/s
• The LHC - unlocking the secrets of the universe
• Art - the Sistine chapel
• Driving - the fact that we can so easily pick up a rather complex skill, all over the world
• Men being able to hit the bullseye of a target from miles away
  and so on...

I just think it's sad that people have so little faith in our species. Yes, we are greedy, and we are selfish, but a) it's allowed us to survive and flourish, b) we don't know of ANY system which works differently. Considering that, in my opinion, we are just animals meant to pass on our genes, altruism in society has come a long way. Yes, there are many useless, horrific individuals out there; the state of affairs in the world is not perfect (but it is improving extremely rapidly) but that's just a side-effect of running a system so complex and varied. Stop looking at the bad examples of everything all the time, and look at the good. We have not raped this planet of it's resources; we have designed wonderful technology to take the lifeless, meaningless resources out of this rock we happen to be on, and use them to our own devices. Once we're done with this planet, we'll move onto a next one; because we're survivors, and we use what's around us. If we all came up with some ridiculous, pretentious view that we shouldn't be using the Earth's resources to sustain ourselves, we'd of died a long time ago.

You guys are like hoarders. You can't bear to think what might happen in future generations if we have to let the Earth go because of our own destruction. Think of the Buddhist principle of change. Everything dies, everything changes. Animals die, plants die and planets die. We're not going to be on the Earth forever. We're going to keep moving around, or simply perish. Nothing will ever stay the same, so let it go.

Think of Einsten, think of Leonardo Di Vinci. Humans fucking rock.

this just backs up my point *edit* perfectly. get over it.

[human?]

full solar eclipses says we are special.

reductionist materialist ideology is soooo 20th century

Teleological inferences based on single phenomena are so 5th century BC

yet modern cosmology is still based on one free miracle!

the disinterested observer doesnt exist, long live the felt presence of immediate experience!

[_v_]

man you are full of hope for a better future, as am I..... to get back to the original post, yeah I do think theres something worth saving.... but not as things are at the moment, something has to change dramatically for that to happen, wether it be from our own actions or the actions of nature/the universe.... because as I see it we are heading down a dark path to extiction.


I dont want to prolong this debate about the human race being "gods" or having "god-like egos".... I see your point, but I think its really is just based on hope, your alot more optimistic than I am man, and we do need that optimism, but we also need to realize we are raping our own mother in the ass at the moment, and she aint happy about it.... she is and will fight back for her existence, I dont think its that obscure to consider, look at natural disasters etc escalating more and more since records began... but we will continue to create a justification for this one way or another because thats our nature, and continue with our greed and destruction untill its too late... I dunno, maybe this 2012 shit will lead to another chance/ start. Then we will have to wake up and see our fortune, learn from our mistakes, be thankful and understand that we cannot live again the way we did in the past... we are all to disconnected for this to happen at the moment, but unfortunately it takes a tragedy to unite us, so maybe a "tragedy" on a global scale will unite us on a global scale....

lol, yeh i do often get accused of being hopeful, could be worse i suppose lol.. but i dont think it just a matter of opinion, i really do think there is evidence for my hope

like what i originally said when i jumped in, solar eclipses... so the apparent size of the moon in the sky is EXACTLY the same apparent size as the sun. which is why we have full solar eclipses. and thats something key that was revered since time immemorial.. and then you get to the 20th century, and low & behold, the arguably biggest idea (general relativity) of the time is proven (on a level at least) to be true, thanks to.... a solar eclipse.

one of the consequences of general relativity is gravitational lensing. which, along with the practically perfect position of our Sun in the galaxy, enable us to observe at distances that are more or less impossible to even comprehend...

which is where we then get this notion that we are merely a unimportant speck of accident in a vast blind cosmos... yet we forget how insanely perfect the conditions had to be for us to observe our smallness in the first place...

and it can go backwards in the other direction if youd like to travel along the presupposed creation myth of science... its that perfect size of the moon that creates the perfect conditions for biological life on earth....

i think the whole thing is alive. the entire universe. everything. alive. so is life rare? nah, life is everywhere, for real. BUT, is biological life capable of observation, abstraction, and conscious manipulation rare? id bet exceedingly...

and not only is it worth "saving", i believe we are exactly what the universe intended and have only just begun...

agreed man, if your point is to say life isnt some meaningless random act of chance.... because it isnt, it is far too complex and perfect, even if you consider the smallest things, nature and the universe is a design and has forces that we can only hope to one day understand.

[human?]

agreed man, if your point is to say life isnt some meaningless random act of chance.... because it isnt, it is far too complex and perfect, even if you consider the smallest things, nature and the universe is a design and has forces that we can only hope to one day understand.

yeh yo, more or less in a nutshell

life, and humans even in particular... imho that we sit here now asking these question is divine evidence, gives me purpose and hope, whatever those are..

[parson]

[_v_]

agreed man, if your point is to say life isnt some meaningless random act of chance.... because it isnt, it is far too complex and perfect, even if you consider the smallest things, nature and the universe is a design and has forces that we can only hope to one day understand.

yeh yo, more or less in a nutshell

life, and humans even in particular... imho that we sit here now asking these question is divine evidence, gives me purpose and hope, whatever those are..

good point man, it gives me some hope also, purpose yes perhaps, its worth considering.

[alien pimp]

we're wasted god material and that's what pisses me off

[parson]

[parson]

[parson]

[hayze99]

man you are full of hope for a better future, as am I..... to get back to the original post, yeah I do think theres something worth saving.... but not as things are at the moment, something has to change dramatically for that to happen, wether it be from our own actions or the actions of nature/the universe.... because as I see it we are heading down a dark path to extiction.


I dont want to prolong this debate about the human race being "gods" or having "god-like egos".... I see your point, but I think its really is just based on hope, your alot more optimistic than I am man, and we do need that optimism, but we also need to realize we are raping our own mother in the ass at the moment, and she aint happy about it.... she is and will fight back for her existence, I dont think its that obscure to consider, look at natural disasters etc escalating more and more since records began... but we will continue to create a justification for this one way or another because thats our nature, and continue with our greed and destruction untill its too late... I dunno, maybe this 2012 shit will lead to another chance/ start. Then we will have to wake up and see our fortune, learn from our mistakes, be thankful and understand that we cannot live again the way we did in the past... we are all to disconnected for this to happen at the moment, but unfortunately it takes a tragedy to unite us, so maybe a "tragedy" on a global scale will unite us on a global scale....

Wow, I actually was quite interested in your points until you brought 2012 into it. Don't inflate it off the charts and talk about us thinking we have become gods. First of all, we are the only sentient life that we know of so far in the universe, so so far, yes, we are the hottest shit in this galaxy. Secondly, we are the closest to the meaning of 'gods' that you are describing than anything else in the universe as well - shaping natural laws and so on. I mean, how can you undermine the invention of a television? Being able to emulate light waves and establish pictures is god-like in itself; it's miraculous.

Now stop right there, because I don't believe this means that we are gods (in the sense of the word I think you're using) or anything like it; I'm simply saying, how can you undermine our species when we have nothing to compare is to? Once again, as far as we know, there is nothing out there more intelligent or versatile than us (I don't believe this).

Lastly, your idea of egotistical humans is disproved by your own argument. Most of the people in this thread are arguing against the pride of humanity. Completely random estimations to establish a point would be that 33% of people show the same melancholy and self-loathing of humanity as you do. 33% are proud but humble (of which I can relate myself). 33% never even think about it, and something like 65% (overlapping the previous bits) believe in a god higher than themselves anyway. I'd say about 1%, of which people like Caligula were part of, actually, truly believe in the view that we are gods, and hold any sort of power of dominion whatsoever over the universe. These people also happen to be psychotic.

Again, I'm simply making a point that we don't know if there are any higher powers than us. Once we start terraforming and colonising other planets, inserting our atmospheres perhaps, from the point of view of other non-human consciousnesses, we will become gods in some sense of the word. The problem is with the word god. I'm not talking about omniscience; I'm talking about the power to change natural laws on a large scale. The whole word brings about a lot of crossing cables. Again, I'm not trying to be egotistical, I'm trying to be rational. I don't believe humans are gods (in most senses of the words), but I don't think ego really comes into it anyway. Ultimately, the universe, again, doesn't give a shit how egotistical we are. We're just playing it's infinite game.

Interesting shit, I'm reading a book called The Master and the Emissary (incredible so far, look into it), and in it they explain that the frontal lobe of the brain is where consciousness comes out of. The frontal lobes of less intelligent animals like dogs represent 7% of total brain volume. Those of apes, 17%, and of humans 35%. What exactly will happen when this ratio increases (and I'm sure it will)? Just to clarify, I believe there is a higher consciousness, but trying to penetrate it is equal to a fish trying to understand how our brain works; completely and utterly impossible in every sense of the word.

[parson]

that epitomized tl;dr

[parson]

microsoft apologist doesn't wanna hear about 2012 in internet forum shocker

[_v_]

man you are full of hope for a better future, as am I..... to get back to the original post, yeah I do think theres something worth saving.... but not as things are at the moment, something has to change dramatically for that to happen, wether it be from our own actions or the actions of nature/the universe.... because as I see it we are heading down a dark path to extiction.


I dont want to prolong this debate about the human race being "gods" or having "god-like egos".... I see your point, but I think its really is just based on hope, your alot more optimistic than I am man, and we do need that optimism, but we also need to realize we are raping our own mother in the ass at the moment, and she aint happy about it.... she is and will fight back for her existence, I dont think its that obscure to consider, look at natural disasters etc escalating more and more since records began... but we will continue to create a justification for this one way or another because thats our nature, and continue with our greed and destruction untill its too late... I dunno, maybe this 2012 shit will lead to another chance/ start. Then we will have to wake up and see our fortune, learn from our mistakes, be thankful and understand that we cannot live again the way we did in the past... we are all to disconnected for this to happen at the moment, but unfortunately it takes a tragedy to unite us, so maybe a "tragedy" on a global scale will unite us on a global scale....

Wow, I actually was quite interested in your points until you brought 2012 into it. Don't inflate it off the charts and talk about us thinking we have become gods. First of all, we are the only sentient life that we know of so far in the universe, so so far, yes, we are the hottest shit in this galaxy. Secondly, we are the closest to the meaning of 'gods' that you are describing than anything else in the universe as well - shaping natural laws and so on. I mean, how can you undermine the invention of a television? Being able to emulate light waves and establish pictures is god-like in itself; it's miraculous.

Now stop right there, because I don't believe this means that we are gods (in the sense of the word I think you're using) or anything like it; I'm simply saying, how can you undermine our species when we have nothing to compare is to? Once again, as far as we know, there is nothing out there more intelligent or versatile than us (I don't believe this).

Lastly, your idea of egotistical humans is disproved by your own argument. Most of the people in this thread are arguing against the pride of humanity. Completely random estimations to establish a point would be that 33% of people show the same melancholy and self-loathing of humanity as you do. 33% are proud but humble (of which I can relate myself). 33% never even think about it, and something like 65% (overlapping the previous bits) believe in a god higher than themselves anyway. I'd say about 1%, of which people like Caligula were part of, actually, truly believe in the view that we are gods, and hold any sort of power of dominion whatsoever over the universe. These people also happen to be psychotic.

Again, I'm simply making a point that we don't know if there are any higher powers than us. Once we start terraforming and colonising other planets, inserting our atmospheres perhaps, from the point of view of other non-human consciousnesses, we will become gods in some sense of the word. The problem is with the word god. I'm not talking about omniscience; I'm talking about the power to change natural laws on a large scale. The whole word brings about a lot of crossing cables. Again, I'm not trying to be egotistical, I'm trying to be rational. I don't believe humans are gods (in most senses of the words), but I don't think ego really comes into it anyway. Ultimately, the universe, again, doesn't give a shit how egotistical we are. We're just playing it's infinite game.

Interesting shit, I'm reading a book called The Master and the Emissary (incredible so far, look into it), and in it they explain that the frontal lobe of the brain is where consciousness comes out of. The frontal lobes of less intelligent animals like dogs represent 7% of total brain volume. Those of apes, 17%, and of humans 35%. What exactly will happen when this ratio increases (and I'm sure it will)? Just to clarify, I believe there is a higher consciousness, but trying to penetrate it is equal to a fish trying to understand how our brain works; completely and utterly impossible in every sense of the word.

alright dude, its late here 3 am almost and im tired, but I think your getting a bit too upset about nothing... again I feel I have to clarify my statements..... when I said "i dont know maybe this 2012 shit will lead" look at the words, im saying "I dont know" and "maybe" im not stating "this will happen" weve all heard it, I was just entertaining the idea of the possibility thats is all.... my point was we think we are so superior to everything else because of technology, and everything you have said backs this up. You go on to talk about how we are the "hottest shit in this galaxy". and that "there is nothing out there more intelligent or versatile than us" but then you say "(I don't believe this)". So maybe you need to clarify that statement also, but my point earlier was that there is a more intelligent and versatile force out there than us, a much more powerful, intelligent and versatile force, and its nature/the universe.... of which we understand little.

and seriously, you cant make a valid point with "Completely random estimations to establish a point" im sorry but that mate is just laughable.



you have made interesting points, and I will agree with this statement you made which I think sums up my point exactly..........

"Ultimately, the universe, again, doesn't give a shit how egotistical we are. We're just playing it's infinite game".

[parson]

to think of ones self as separate from the universe is as lost in ego as it gets.

[_v_]

to think of ones self as separate from the universe is as lost in ego as it gets.

agreed.