gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[Depone]

A pleasure!

Autoanything =

what?!? not even autofellatio?

I haven't had the necessary ribs removed

Best £20,000 ever spent!

[SunkLo]

Really when you take into account all the hookers and drinks bought for ladies, cover charges and nice shirts, plus all the time you'll take getting dressed up and going out, it's really quite a bargain.

[Phigure]

A pleasure!

Autoanything =

what?!? not even autofellatio?

I haven't had the necessary ribs removed

Best £20,000 ever spent!

I can do it, and I still have all my ribs

[macc]

I know it's called the Moneyshot thread... but that's quite enough

[volcanogeorge]

Right I ran into a little problem yesterday and I apologise if it's a horrifically noobish question to ask, but:

I was layering 2 snares together on 2 tracks in my DAW, I wanted to use all of Snare 1 and just the top end of Snare 2, so I left the EQ off snare 1 for now and used the EQ to roll off everything below ~400Hz on the second snare. As soon as I did this, snare 2 starts clipping by 4dB, even when snare 1 isn't playing. Before the EQ was applied, it was peaking at ~-2dB.

The question is, how have I managed to make a track clip that badly by only removing frequencies from the track?

I might try doing this again and use a post-fader frequency analyzer to see what's happening

[Depone]

Right I ran into a little problem yesterday and I apologise if it's a horrifically noobish question to ask, but:

I was layering 2 snares together on 2 tracks in my DAW, I wanted to use all of Snare 1 and just the top end of Snare 2, so I left the EQ off snare 1 for now and used the EQ to roll off everything below ~400Hz on the second snare. As soon as I did this, snare 2 starts clipping by 4dB, even when snare 1 isn't playing. Before the EQ was applied, it was peaking at ~-2dB.

The question is, how have I managed to make a track clip that badly by only removing frequencies from the track?

I might try doing this again and use a post-fader frequency analyzer to see what's happening

I have this bookmarked, so your lucky! haha

Macc has covered this over here - http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.ph ... did=605231

Very well too!

[volcanogeorge]

Right I ran into a little problem yesterday and I apologise if it's a horrifically noobish question to ask, but:

I was layering 2 snares together on 2 tracks in my DAW, I wanted to use all of Snare 1 and just the top end of Snare 2, so I left the EQ off snare 1 for now and used the EQ to roll off everything below ~400Hz on the second snare. As soon as I did this, snare 2 starts clipping by 4dB, even when snare 1 isn't playing. Before the EQ was applied, it was peaking at ~-2dB.

The question is, how have I managed to make a track clip that badly by only removing frequencies from the track?

I might try doing this again and use a post-fader frequency analyzer to see what's happening

I have this bookmarked, so your lucky! haha

Macc has covered this over here - http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.ph ... did=605231

Very well too!

Excellent! Thanks very much

I had a thought it'd involve phase issues but I had no idea why/how to correct it, brilliant

[contakt321]

n/m - DOA link is dead on.

Best thread in Production forum, thank you everyone who contributed to this. Have learned so much, and learn more every time I re-read.

[Depone]

Too late im afraid (see above) ^^^

Right I ran into a little problem yesterday and I apologise if it's a horrifically noobish question to ask, but:

I was layering 2 snares together on 2 tracks in my DAW, I wanted to use all of Snare 1 and just the top end of Snare 2, so I left the EQ off snare 1 for now and used the EQ to roll off everything below ~400Hz on the second snare. As soon as I did this, snare 2 starts clipping by 4dB, even when snare 1 isn't playing. Before the EQ was applied, it was peaking at ~-2dB.

The question is, how have I managed to make a track clip that badly by only removing frequencies from the track?

I might try doing this again and use a post-fader frequency analyzer to see what's happening

Maybe your EQ is boosting the level or has make up gain or something?

[macc]

I knew I typed all that for a reason

Be careful if you use a linear phase eq to do the same job. Keep the roll off/highpass slope gentle, or you're going into a world of other shit that's just as bad

Good luck!

[SunkLo]

On that note, anywhere I can read more about pre ring? I've never really run across it much while using linear phase for gentle applications, but I plan on doing some mixing down with linear phase eq's in place of minimal phase ones in the future so I might run into it then. Best to be prepared and know what I'm going to be up against.

[staticcast]

On that note, anywhere I can read more about pre ring? I've never really run across it much while using linear phase for gentle applications, but I plan on doing some mixing down with linear phase eq's in place of minimal phase ones in the future so I might run into it then. Best to be prepared and know what I'm going to be up against.

Very mathy, but solid (follow the links around that site for more info):
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/fp/Line ... Ideal.html

More colloquial answer is this. A linear phase EQ produces the same result (apart from a constant time delay, and reversed of course) whether you feed in the signal forwards or backwards. If you feed a sharp transient into a normal filter/EQ, the output will usually "ring" for a short while afterwards, albeit inaudibly because it's so short and masked by the transient itself. A linear phase EQ will have the same ringing before the transient as well, and sometimes you can hear this. (Maybe you can see why this would be impossible to implement without the time delay - in theory a linear phase filter with no time delay would be called "zero-phase", but can't be realized because it would need to see into the future in order to know that the transient is coming up.)

Bottom line: use what sounds good. On paper, the waveform post filtering usually looks a bit less weird when you apply a linear phase filter. To the ear, that's not always the case.

[macc]

[deadly_habit]

heh i think when i'm feeling bored i'm gonna do a macc master document from his 1&a on doa, this thread and other ones i have bookmarked
shame i never saved my aim logs with him
some of bob's posts should be compiled into something like the bob katz book imo
now if only he would start making cranking dnb tunes again... or dubstep for that matter (maybe he can get 0=0 back in gear )

[Genevieve]

Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

This is has been 'bugging' me for ages, should've asked this before. Like, since I first read this post.

Sooo, I mostly make breakcore. I often layer two to three breaks at the time, all edited and mashed up. Then there are the gabber kick drums. I usually have one completely clean kick and one completely distorted kick in two different channels and I play with the faders until I get the wet/clean ratio I desire.

My question is this; should my clean kick + all breaks peak at around -8 - 10 dB, as a whole? As if I were to route them all to a send and have that send peak at 'around' -8/-10? And should I treat the 100% distorted kick as a bassline rather than a drum?

[deadly_habit]

Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

This is has been 'bugging' me for ages, should've asked this before. Like, since I first read this post.

Sooo, I mostly make breakcore. I often layer two to three breaks at the time, all edited and mashed up. Then there are the gabber kick drums. I usually have one completely clean kick and one completely distorted kick in two different channels and I play with the faders until I get the wet/clean ratio I desire.

My question is this; should my clean kick + all breaks peak at around -8 - 10 dB, as a whole? As if I were to route them all to a send and have that send peak at 'around' -8/-10? And should I treat the 100% distorted kick as a bassline rather than a drum?

depends on if you want a clean breakcore sound or a traditional one imo
most older gabber and breakcore relied on digital clipping

[Genevieve]

Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

This is has been 'bugging' me for ages, should've asked this before. Like, since I first read this post.

Sooo, I mostly make breakcore. I often layer two to three breaks at the time, all edited and mashed up. Then there are the gabber kick drums. I usually have one completely clean kick and one completely distorted kick in two different channels and I play with the faders until I get the wet/clean ratio I desire.

My question is this; should my clean kick + all breaks peak at around -8 - 10 dB, as a whole? As if I were to route them all to a send and have that send peak at 'around' -8/-10? And should I treat the 100% distorted kick as a bassline rather than a drum?

depends on if you want a clean breakcore sound or a traditional one imo
most older gabber and breakcore relied on digital clipping

Well, I'ma put it like this. If I were making the Bloody Fist/DHR/Praxis type breakcore, I wouldn't be posting in this thread haha. Still got mad love, for it, though.

[macc]

Yeah - IMO it is best to do it that way.

Look at it this way... imagine you have 5 drum breaks all all going, and a big heavy bass. You want them all separate (ie the opposite of what we're saying);

Drum break 1 gets to about -8
Drum break 2 gets to about -8
Drum break 3 gets to about -8
errrr, we're probably already clipping
Drum break 4 gets to about -8
now we're definitely clipping
Drum break 5 gets to about -8
now it's heavily audible
Bass gets to about -8
NOW we're making beakcore

Stylistically Breakcore is made to be like that - fucking intense and driven through the roof. But by doing it on busses, wth the clipping and the filthy plugins and whatnot all done at matched perceived levels (as discussed very recently in this thread), and by leaving headroom as per the you can make a seriously intense mix that you still have total control over. Ok, so compared directly it will be significantly lower compared to DJ Pissnonce's 'make it all go red' mix. But it will have the potential to go equally as loud, if not more so, and sound better.

Remember here that master clipping is 'important' for breakcore - I'm not for one second saying you shouldn't imitate/adapt that though. Use clippers, use whatever to get the sound you want. But by doing it in a controlled fashion you have better control of the sound, you can tweak it in ways you couldn't otherwise when just hitting the master out hard, and you still have room to breathe to put more shit in to make it even more intense You also have the ability to use oversampling plugs and avoid/minimise the horrific aliasing problems inherent in the process at 44.1kHz. Plus a key key key point is that when just hitting the master output, you're clipping your DA convertor. When that gets played back through a different DA, who's to say it will soud the same? Will it distort in the same way? Not in my experience. Do it all on busses and that is the way it sounds, and that's fecking that

I dunno if you know dev/null, but I've done a few of his things recently and they're mixed bloody aggressively on the busses, but I get them clean (ie nothing on the master). He just checks with a limiter ocasionally while mixing to ensure his mix can take beating, but all the processing is done on busses. And they sound fecking GREAT. Best mixes I have had in months.

[Genevieve]

I don't want a clipped sound. o.o Like, pretend that I'm not making breakcore. I 'get' breakcore, but I wanna keep my shit clean, you know?

I was just wondering if my overall drums (clean 909 kick, 2 breaks) were supposed to peak at -8 together and if my distorted kick (as opposed to my clean kick) should be treated as a bassline rather than a drum and therefore shouldn't be included in the '-8/10' reference point.

I've done my share of dirty as shit breakcore too in the past but I wanna keep it clean.

[SunkLo]

Thanks for that writeup Static!

And as for drums, depending on how you want things balanced, -10 to -8 for the drums all together leaves enough room for some heavy synth work on top and a bit of headroom left over.