Reply from Rinse, RE: Barefiles

[spaceboy]

Hi all
i've spoken with sarah and gee and this is their reply
L

In response to Deapohs thread, firstly we have to express that we regret the way that deapoh has distorted the truth about this, as we've only ever dealt with him professionally considerately and openly.

we approached deapoh in recognition of his tireless work on recording rinse shows and had a good relationship with him. he was a team member and helped with rinse.
It was known early on to him and everyone that eventually the sets, interviews etc would have to start coming exclusively from the Rinse website, but after some time, his attitude changed considerably after he wanted us to allow him to sell recordings of the rinse broadcasts.
He was insisting that the sets be sold from Barefiles with a percentage going to Rinse. for many reasons, the only site that we can sell rinse sets from is the rinse site. This is a perfectly normal and reasonable request and at no point was it a decision made to 'boy Deapoh as he is claiming.
one of the proposed solutions for sharing the sale of Rinse sets was to incorporate deapoh into rinse:

'' we could buy it (Barefiles) off you, incorporate it into rinse and give you a cut of the company still?
I wanted to give you a chance to think about it... I'd like it if we could meet to talk about it?
Safe
sarah''

thats a quote from the email conversations about the rinse sets. We feel that out of context quotes were used against us by deapoh in the thread from that conversation, so we've included the unedited emails at the end so you can make your own minds up. Its a shame to have to go into such detail, it should have never been made public.
for the record and those that asked, sarah is ammunition (geenues is not involved) and is a partner of rinse with geeneus. at no point was ammunition involved with barefiles

Barefiles has given Rinse alot of international coverage with thousands of downloads of dubstep sets from the station to go on the site, which was a great exchange. but it does not give him the right over selling the rinse sets, which is what deapoh is so angry about. its obviously a big deal to him as rinse sets have been on there since barefiles started, the best thing to do was offer him options to bridge the gap between sites, but an agreement couldnt be made.
We know hes frustrated, but to go on a forum and slander ammunition and its crew was unprofessional and out of order, whatever his stance

Rinse has been broadcasting for 13 years and first programmed dubstep when hatcha + kode 9 came on the station in 2003, we loved and stood by the music at a time when exposure was minimal and we'll continue to support our artists and DJs, we encourage you to ask any actual DJ or colleague of Rinse and they will back this up.

We are looking to move beyond this situation for the sake of Rinse and Barefiles in what should have been a private matter over the sale and distribution of Rinse fm sets

peace
Rinse fm crew

On 01/12/06, Sarah <sarah> wrote:

Listen, Gee and I have been meaning to ask you; we want to buy barefiles from you, we could buy it off you, incorporate it into rinse and give you a cut of the company still?

I wanted to give you a chance to think about it... I'd like it if we could meet to talk about it?

Safe

sarah

******************************************************

Paul Rose (Scuba) asked to pay for all the servers from Hotflush on Apr-21-2006. I wouldn't feel right selling it to anyone sorry. But of course I'd love Rinse to be involved somehow.

Lets talk about it more next time.

Bless,

Deapoh.

******************************************************

On 12/01/07, Sarah <sarah> wrote:

Ez Deapoh

How you doing? Happy 2007 bruv, hope you enjoyed the festive season : )

This email is to try to clarify how you will work with Rinse. Seen as

we haven't got round to meeting I figure its best to do this by email.

So, we need someone to oversee the download section of rinse as

discussed. The exact specs as to how the files will be manually

uploaded and then downloaded by the user is to be ironed out. What I need to know from you is do you want to oversee the process once it's set up, including recording and editing each file/set, and giving input where relevant to how the whole system should operate.

If you are up for it then we need to establish what you want in return. Also its worth saying for the record that barefiles will no longer be able to host rinse sets, and we would like to be able to use the existing sets.

Please can you give us an idea how you see it best working, so far what you have done with barefiles is amazing and we want to work with you long term. I'd like to figure out how we can move forward with you working with us, rather than a casual arrangement I want to confirm how it will run now so all involved knows what's what.

Let me know your thoughts on this, firstly if you are into the idea then if you would prefer us to come up with some options that's cool too, just let me know...

Big up

Sarah

******************************************************

Begin forwarded message:

Hi,

Happy 2007. Had a quiet one over Christmas but New Years was round

FWD as usual, second home business. That night was liiive.. I can't quite remember it, I drunk a lot and smoked a lot but enjoyed it.

I've been meaning to email you about the Rinse mixes. What I’m setting up on Barefiles is a registration thing where you buy a certain amount of mixes so £25 = 1000 downloads. Or something like this, not sure on pricing exactly, might do a yearly registration but I can see this brining in a lot of money. Also will allow anyone to submit mixes that will be checked and uploaded. So everyones got a chance of being found out about.

I was thinking if we include the Rinse FM mixes on Barefiles still as

many people know that site for mixes. I can write you a script so

people can access it from the Rinse site. Of course I don't mind

recording from the studio so it's higher quality and cutting it up. I've read from quite a few people they're dieing for higher quality. Even 128 stereo people would be happy with. We could work out a package where you get more Rinse mixes but at a higher price etc. And between us we can work out a percentage of the money thats being brought in.

Registered Barefiles as a Ltd company the other day.

The legal radio mixes will be kept free so I don't get done in.

Let me know what you think of this.


Bless,

Deapoh.

******************************************************

On 28/01/07, Sarah <sarah> wrote:

EZ D

Hope you're cool

Apologies for the formal tone but rather than let there be any

misunderstanding from now on I want to be very clear about the Rinse/Barefiles situation.

The only site/host/place that ANY Rinse sets or sets from Rinse FM

artists; including pre-records, recordings of the stream, live

events , performances, interviews (and any other) across all formats will ONLY be available from an official Rinse site from now on (i.e. rinse.fm and for the avoidance of doubt this means not on Barefiles)

We have been working towards setting this up for months now and we will be making sure that any re-hosting of our content gets stopped ASAP. We have the governing copyright protection agencies to help us control this (as we have the relevant licenses set up already)

There is no way we will be changing our mind about this and need you to be clearly informed.

I figure its best you digest this information and think about if its

worth meeting, I don't want to waste your or our time. Think about

it and should you still want to meet we will be more than happy to.

Safe

Sarah

******************************************************

Dear Sarah,

We here at Barefiles Ltd. are absolutely shocked at the position your taking regarding the Barefiles/Rinse.FM situation. The intent of this email is for Rinse.FM to clearly understand our position in the matter and hopefully bring light to some points that we don't think Rinse.FM is considering.

First off, we would like to bring to your attention all the time Barefiles has spent working for Rinse over the past year. We feel that we have put forth a considerable amount of time and effort and deserve to be compensated in some way. Dean has spent hours on end recording and uploading Rinse.FM mixes to the Barefiles server over this past year. A large portion of time spent was strictly to the advantage of Rinse.FM. Is Barefiles to understand that Rinse.FM feels no compensation is necessary here?

You have to realise that there would not be such a high demand for Rinse.FM sets if it was not for us recording and hosting them over the past year. It is not good business for Rinse.FM to try and bully away this momentum that Barefiles has created. Hours and hours were spent creating Barefiles.com and making the name what it is, now Rinse.FM wants to come in and steal the thunder just because we did not want to sell the website? We feel this is very unprofessional.

Barefiles.com is a much bigger and a more established global brand than Rinse.FM. Barefiles has given Rinse.FM a lot of global recognition over the past year. Rinse.FM would not have even close to the global fan base it has now without people downloading from our website. We spread and advertised the Rinse.FM name around the world. Factually speaking, Barefiles gave Rinse.FM more of an international position than Rinse.FM has EVER created for itself.

On average there are 25000 sets a month downloaded from Barefiles. Of these sets about half are Rinse.FM sets. Barefiles feels it would be in Rinse.FM's best interests to have users download Rinse.FM sets from Barefiles.com and receive a cut of the profit. Full details would have to be worked out.

How many people are going to pay to download Rinse.FM mixes when they can listen for free? Since the website has been offline for 2 weeks, there have been numerous other people recording the stream and hosting the recording. It will be nearly impossible for Rinse.FM to stop this from happening. Even if Rinse.FM has relevant copyright licenses in place, it is extremely expensive to pay copyright lawyers. If the sets are hosted outside of the UK, Rinse.FM will have to pay international copyright lawyers to fight their cause. We wonder if Rinse.FM has any idea in the actual costs surrounding copyrighting. We feel that if Barefiles.com was to continue hosting mixes this re-hosting would be cut to a minimum due to the loyalty and respect people have towards our very well established brand name.

If Barefiles was to start selling its mixes separate from Rinse.FM, we think most people would pay to login to Barefiles.com over Rinse.FM because anyone can listen to your station for free while our site contains "new" or unheard material. Please keep in mind that the Rinse.FM shows are almost the exact same material from week to week. Same tunes from the same DJ's, music progression is still very slow in the scene. We feel that giving users the ability to download Rinse.FM sets as well as other sets would advantage Rinse.FM due to the fact users would have more choice in what they can download. It's more bang for the buck. Also have you considered that you must pay the DJ aswell as artists in the mix for selling their music?

Barefiles Ltd already has the ability to process credit cards, debit cards and PayPal payments. We assume you are aware of the costs involved in setting up these types of payment processors and will realise that it is cheaper to set them up for one site rather than two. We have a new, considerable large, marketing budget to spend in 2007. We are preparing for various different ad spends over the next year that would also be to the advantage of Rinse.FM. More information on these ad spends will be brought to light if an outcome is pursued that is beneficial to both parties.

The name Barefiles.com stretches far beyond the grime and dubstep scene limits and is responsible for exposing the sound to many new people. The website is listed/linked on countless other websites that are not scene related and we have also been mentioned in various magazines, newspapers and on numerous flyers. We will continue to expose even more people to the sound with our new marketing budget. Exposing new people to the sound has been our underlying motivation from the start.

The name Barefiles is going to continue to grow and will only be further excelled with the addition of its sister company Bare Dubs Ltd. Bare Dubs has many forth coming releases and will soon be selling its vinyl releases online in conjunction with Barefiles.com. We are also in the talks of selling mp3 copies of the vinyl releases on our sites as well as others.

Barefiles Ltd does not want to sound overly harsh but, Rinse.FM will receive a negative image in the scene if we are no longer able to host Rinse.FM mixes. We have explained the current situation to a few "key players" in the scene and let's just say their reactions have not been good. Barefiles.com is prepared to change its front page to inform the public of the current situation as well as post on dubstepforum.com.

We would like to thank you for considering everyone's time and its great that you don't want to waste anyone's time, but if we cant work something out, Barefiles is going to sustain a considerable amount of time wasted.

Thanks,

Barefiles Ltd.

ROFLMAO!

[flippo]

Someone shoulda just called Judy. Bish bash bosh, sorted in 25 minutes or less - including commercial breaks.

Nah man you need some real heavyweight legal representation for a case of this magnitude. Time to bring in....

My Name is Judge

[ms a bourdain]

I also think Deapoh has been misrepresented by this. As far as I can see, he didn't slander anyone. He posted up the facts, and people drew their own conclusions. The snippets he posted didn't demonise Ammunition, and they didn't distort the truth. Respect for posting up the full emails, but the situation is the same.

i whole-heartedly agree. i didn't feel there was any slander on deapoh's part, and genuinely feel he conducted himself as professionally as can be expected considering this is something he feels so passionately about.

Sarah and Gee made the decisions about Barefiles. No one else was involved and the others that work for Ammo I have a lot of respect for.

i really would just like to say that i don't think deapoh should be held responsible for any slanderous or unverifiable statements made in the original post. he posted his account of the situation as he saw it, and as a result people responded with their OWN views and opinions based on this.

to suggest he misled us somehow is unfair, as without including ALL correspondence made (which i very much doubt anyone would actually want to see) all either side can do is put forward their version of events anyway, so we're only ever given an out of context distortion of events at best. common sense should imply that you're not going to get the full extent of a complex business arrangement via a post on a forum. this should be generally implied without deapoh having to stipulate this. so to imply that deapoh somehow mislead us and distorted the truth by not revealing all details of negotiations (ie the financial info) is unfair.

Some might say that neither party is blameless in this situation but i am slightly dismayed that Rinse's reply was to post the email correspondence between themselves and Barefiles, mainly because Rinse is aware of how much of an emotive issue this has become, particuarly in the last few days.

granted, things were getting a little heated on some pages in the last thread but i think part of that can be attributed to the lack of a prompt reply from Rinse, which was viewed as contempt.

I feel that Rinse's reply has not essentially changed things:
Rinse want exclusivity over anything Rinse-related, with the intention of making a profit,
Barefiles wants to host sets from Rinse (and others), with the intention of bringing dubstep to a wider community and is considering a subscription or donation system

Obviously it IS a complex and delicate situation, so....

Given that deapoh had the sense not to post all correspondence, perhaps Rinse could have displayed similar discretion. Posting up all correspondence on a public forum seems to me something of a breach of confidence.

[monkeytek]

when u spin my buzzah, my cap plays the theme to night court starring richard moll...

[drum syndicate]

I would like to see the correspondance that Rinse.FM submitted AFTER the barefiles ltd. email was sent.

It seems hypocritical that they would try and call him out for not providing all of the direct correspondance, yet they post up thru the barefiles ltd. email, and nothing of their response.

Sounds a bit dodgy to me.


Either way, I still stand by Deapoh in regards to this. I do not think the Rinse.FM response has addressed half of the concerns that have come up (djs being compensated for mixes being sold/artists on said mixes receiving royalties/artists receiving royalties for mixes broadcast over the air, etc.)

I know this may not be something they want to discuss, but since they were the first to try and turn the tide against Barefiles suggestion of a subscription to the site, I feel they should be somewhat forthwith with their ideas on the subject. Barefiles had directly commented in that email about artists being paid for providing a service. I'm sure the subscription would have helped to provide the artists on the site with some way to receive compensation for the use of their music directly effected by the number of downloads of said sets.

That's just my 2cents on it.

[panzar-rukkuz]

bamdub subfm show

I need a bigger logo at my site

[fractal]

when u spin my buzzah, my cap plays the theme to night court starring richard moll...

huge tune!

[josephine]

I would like to see the correspondance that Rinse.FM submitted AFTER the barefiles ltd. email was sent.

There was none.

[*decibella~~]

I have kept out this.

All i wanna say it that this whole thing shouldnt of even been posted up in the 1st place.

If Deapoh wanted to inform everyone, then he could of done so without posting it on this forum. It could of been done alot better, and with alot more taste, an anouncement on the new barefile site would of probably sparked a thread on here all by its self anyways!

sorry but people get messed about in music all the time, its been going on for years and years and years, and i bet sarah has been fucked over by a fair few heads in her time. But to come on this forum, a MASSIVE part of our scene, well, whatever Deapoh had done to him, then he certainly got his own back by doing that thread in the 1st place. Hes not silly, and knew how much it would of blown up (he knows ALOT of the people on here!)

I dont actually care what went off in this disagreement now, but i do care about how people have gone about airying thier dirty washing in public and basically making thier beef... PUBLIC BEEF, not a good look if you ask me, could of been done much better than a post on here with one side of an argument, but obv the poster wanted to spark what they sparked......... like i said an announcement on Barefiles would of been much more proffesional and less negative and still informed everyone, but they obv wanted the reaction from a forum.

come one people, even if deapoh was fucked about, hes come on here, a forum thats WORLDWIDE and a MASSIVE part of the scene (15,000 views!) and dragged the Rinse name down...

any sympathy i had for deapoh has gone, as i think hes well and truly got his own back... .. .

Thats jus my honest opinion
____________________________________________________________

[batfink]

sorry but people get messed about in music all the time, its been going on for years and years and years

that's no reason to allow the cycle to be perpetuated.

[*decibella~~]

sorry but people get messed about in music all the time, its been going on for years and years and years

that's no reason to allow the cycle to be perpetuated.

if you put my quote in context, you can clearly see that what im sayin is that as a FACT it unfortunatly does happen......
like i said my post isnt about the actual argument, im not gettin into that, its about how the whole thing has been handled.

[incyde]

seriously lets just lock this thread and stop talkin about it, theres nothin more to be said IMHO and further discussion will just create more bad vibes that no one needs.

[*decibella~~]

seriously lets just lock this thread and stop talkin about it, theres nothin more to be said IMHO and further discussion will just create more bad vibes that no one needs .

exaxtly my point. why did it ever need to get posted on here in the 1st place. This forum has a wicked sense of togetherness and community and the post didnt belong here in the 1st place.

This thread shouldnt be locked tho, the whole topic has been started now, the damage has been done anyways.
ill be intrested to see if anyone comments on what i wrote.

[batfink]

sorry but people get messed about in music all the time, its been going on for years and years and years

that's no reason to allow the cycle to be perpetuated.

if you put my quote in context, you can clearly see that what im sayin is that as a FACT it unfortunatly does happen......
like i said my post isnt about the actual argument, im not gettin into that, its about how the whole thing has been handled.

i think getting bogged down in the moral question of whether posting it on a forum is wrong or not is a waste of time. youre just trying to second guess someones intent. impossible.

[ufo over easy]

Stuff like this concerns the whole scene, I have no problem with this being sorted out in public.

[*decibella~~]

im not guessing the intent ..... the intent is apparent! Thats my point.
Why dont you read my post properly before trying to pick faults with it.

[batfink]

im not guessing the intent ..... the intent is apparent! Thats my point.
Why dont you read my post properly before trying to pick faults with it.

look deci, i'm not trying to have a go at you, and i am reading your posts properly.

but you are assuming that deapoh's intent was to bring bad feeling. you don;t know that, you think that. its your opinion. everything you wrote is opinion bar the people getting fucked over thing, which is a fact that most people in this or any dance music scene are aware of.

even if deaps had posted it onn barefiles first, this is a divisive issue and would have most likely (here's my opinion...) blown up just the same once it had hit the front page of dubstepforum. he just put the facts up for people to decide about themselves. Alot of people, myself included, have been eagerly awaiting the new Barefiles. And in all honesty i still am.

[thinking]

hi everyone, this is all getting slightly aggro again, please chill out.

you've read everything that's gonna be said on the matter by Ammunition/Barefiles, i don't think it's worth arguing about differing interpretations.

[autonomic]

hi everyone, this is all getting slightly aggro again, please chill out.

you've read everything that's gonna be said on the matter by Ammunition/Barefiles, i don't think it's worth arguing about differing interpretations.

Seconded, thirded, fourthed and fifthed. This is too long for words.

Let it remain between the parties involved and leave it be. Most of us aren't familiar enough with the situation to have anything worthwhile to say anyway. I learned that several pages ago.

Those that tell don't know. Those that know don't tell.

[paul updat]

hi everyone, this is all getting slightly aggro again, please chill out.

you've read everything that's gonna be said on the matter by Ammunition/Barefiles, i don't think it's worth arguing about differing interpretations.

Seconded, thirded, fourthed and fifthed. This is too long for words.

Let it remain between the parties involved and leave it be. Most of us aren't familiar enough with the situation to have anything worthwhile to say anyway. I learned that several pages ago.

Those that tell don't know. Those that know don't tell.

Fuck it, let's just shut the whole forum down.