St. Patricks Day

[scspkr99]

I'm not sure of the comparison you're drawing between the occupation of Ireland and the immigration issues of AZ.

I'm not even sure how many consider it an occupation. The situation is more complex than is often perceived, there's a real dialogue between the communities in the north and while I'm sure there's recognition for the support Irish American organisations provided during the height of the troubles I'm not sure how well the real situation in Ireland is understood by the diaspora outside of the issues surrounding the 6 counties.

I'll be honest I'm an Englishman of distant Irish heritage who's been living in Ireland for 7 years who voted Sinn Fein in the recent election. My understanding of the conflict is probably very different from yours but the reference to occupation just seems completely anomalous to my own experience.

[alphacat]

I'd have thought it would have been better to highlight racism as a whole rather than to particular groups. To me it's basically like saying racism against one group is more acceptable than another.

That's just the way I read it anyway, not sure if others will.

No, you've observed something valid; there's a subtle but definite tendency for many (particularly die-hard cultural relativists) to support ethnic groups engaged in self-determinist struggles even when their rhetoric is founded on racist views of their [perceived or actual] oppressors.

While I support the right of almost anybody to self-govern and fight for it if their grievance with the status quo is legitimate, the moment they rationalize why somebody else around them - that was not directly responsible but somehow related to the grievance at hand by, say, skin color or religion - deserves to be singled out for the same kind of inhumane treatment they themselves claim to have endured... that's the moment you can't take them as seriously any more; i.e. when people justify killing civilians, kids, doctors, etc. claiming that they were all guilty just by merit of being who they were.

[esfandyar]

I never said it wasn't relevant, I was merely commenting on your choice of words on the banner and in a couple of posts. Like I said, it reads to me that you especially oppose racism towards migrants, I knew this wouldn't be the case, it's just how it reads (to me).

To be perfectly honest with you, I can't really comment on the subject you're talking about a I know nothing about it so my opinion would be worthless. I only like to make strong opinions after digesting some info

i should do more quoting

more towards slothrop and scspkr99 questioning the "english out of ireland" comment.

[scspkr99]

Well as i said in my previous post I've been here 7 years and no ones asked me to leave.

And apologies if that sounds facetious but I was on Troops Out demonstrations 20 years ago and it's just not as relevant now as it was then. Both nationalist and loyalist communities in the north realise that they need to work together to resolve the conflict

[sigbowls]

m

[firky]

I'd have thought it would have been better to highlight racism as a whole rather than to particular groups. To me it's basically like saying racism against one group is more acceptable than another.

That's just the way I read it anyway, not sure if others will.

No, you've observed something valid; there's a subtle but definite tendency for many (particularly die-hard cultural relativists) to support ethnic groups engaged in self-determinist struggles even when their rhetoric is founded on racist views of their [perceived or actual] oppressors.

While I support the right of almost anybody to self-govern and fight for it if their grievance with the status quo is legitimate, the moment they rationalize why somebody else around them - that was not directly responsible but somehow related to the grievance at hand by, say, skin color or religion - deserves to be singled out for the same kind of inhumane treatment they themselves claim to have endured... that's the moment you can't take them as seriously any more; i.e. when people justify killing civilians, kids, doctors, etc. claiming that they were all guilty just by merit of being who they were.

I am so glad you're here, you word things far better than I ever could be bothered to and are pretty much on the same wave length as I.

[esfandyar]

I'm not sure of the comparison you're drawing between the occupation of Ireland and the immigration issues of AZ.

there are so many things i can use as an example.

one, the immigration issue here in az is a racial issue, hands down. the irish during the engish occupation faced racism no european had seen at that point. these struggles are similar in both places. colonialism is an ongoing problem here as mentioned with the next highway being build over sacred land on south mountain. many indigenous live on the other side of the border. this happened in the valley of tara in ireland showing colonialism's wake has not stopped there either. another correlation is the potato famine in ireland which 50% of potato crops at the time were being sent to england by the english while the irish were starving. for the last 17 years the same thing has happened over in mexico from NAFTA, bringing all their corn into the states, making it extremely hard on the mexican population to acquire these resources, making them move from their homes, some ending up here.

[scspkr99]

Sorry but what exactly has the M3 being driven through Tara got to do with colonialism exactly?

I'm not sure of the relevance of the famine either, yes it was despicably handled by the English and was responsible for massive emigration as well as huge loss of life but I don't know it's pertinence to the "Get the English out of Ireland now? I just think the get them out shout is overly simplistic.

[esfandyar]

the significance of tara's celtic burial grounds being severely damaged as a part of colonialism from the english is obvious.. it belongs to the irish people and is a part of their ancestery. the desecration of it to build a motorway over it is in my opinion from colonialism. im not gonna be sitting here breaking down a history lesson.. might want to do some research there yourself..

for a banner, "english out of ireland" shows solidarity with the irish against the english invasion. plain and simple and it fits for a banner... maybe if you make a banner and you walk it in a parade you will put a massive paragraph for people to read slowly and squint the whole time. not us, we have done this before! claiming it as overly simplistic on a banner made me laugh. thats why we handed out the fucking flyers to individuals.

[nowaysj]

^ you have to remember who you are speaking to here.

[.onelove.]

GEEEET AAAAAAAT OF OUR COUNTRY!

LOL @ implying Northern Ireland is still considered an English occupation. Behave yourself ffs, or else there are literally hundreds of occupations still going on around the World. When are the United States going stop it's occupation of Native American land? How all this sectarian bullshit is going on today is fucking ridiculous.

[alphacat]

On sort of a related note, has anyone read "Theme of the Traitor and the Hero" by Borges?

[fuagofire]

Why does anyone need an excuse to go on the piss drinking stout? i do that most nights.

[antipode]

Why does anyone need an excuse to go on the piss drinking stout? i do that most nights.

real talk.

[cityzen]

why's that? the english occupation in ireland is completely relevant to whats happening here in the states, especially in the hottest spot of immigration issues in the US, Phoenix Arizona.

Are you referring to the American occupation of northern Mexico?

[esfandyar]

why's that? the english occupation in ireland is completely relevant to whats happening here in the states, especially in the hottest spot of immigration issues in the US, Phoenix Arizona.

Are you referring to the American occupation of northern Mexico?

bingo.

[esfandyar]

there are literally hundreds of occupations still going on around the World. When are the United States going stop it's occupation of Native American land? How all this sectarian bullshit is going on today is fucking ridiculous.

yes there are hundreds of occupations going on around the world. we had the time to address two. your defeatist attitude sickens me.

[.onelove.]

Hold tight the Anglo-Saxon occupation of the British Isles dating back over 1000 years

[scspkr99]

^ you have to remember who you are speaking to here.

Is this directed towards me?

[scspkr99]

there are literally hundreds of occupations still going on around the World. When are the United States going stop it's occupation of Native American land? How all this sectarian bullshit is going on today is fucking ridiculous.

yes there are hundreds of occupations going on around the world. we had the time to address two. your defeatist attitude sickens me.

what would you rather he do?

Seriously it's relatively easy to take "principled" position with only a cursory understanding of what the actual situation is and without requiring that position be grounded in reality. The north isn't considered an occupation by the majority on both sides of the border. The different communities are working together to address the very real social and economic issues that face the population but you would have them do something different?