Mark Duggan was not armed when shot by police

[Pedro Sánchez]

m8son, are you being serious?

[bennyfroobs]

Lack of police accountability is actually starting to look like a big issue in the UK. No-one gets charged for fucking up on the job, as mentioned.

What happened about that Mendez guy? He was just running for a train ffs...

theyve been taking lessons from america )-: never a good thing

[m8son666]

m8son, are you being serious?

Yes. The bus example is a retarded one i realise, but my point still stands.

[Riddles]

m8son, are you being serious?

Yes. The bus example is a retarded one i realise, but my point still stands.

Yeah i agree with you Mason, I feel in the heat of the moment the police officer acted how he saw fit. In hindsight he was wrong. I think there should be accountability for this, making a mistake this big is terrible, but it was a mistake.

[bennyfroobs]

oh ffs "a mistake"

lol oops just went and shot another unarmed man in the back twice. fiddlesticks. better get my police buddies to cover up this one and plant a gun on him! quick guys, change your reports to say he had a gun on him

[Riddles]

oh ffs "a mistake"

lol oops just went and shot another unarmed man in the back twice. fiddlesticks. better get my police buddies to cover up this one and plant a gun on him! quick guys, change your reports to say he had a gun on him

im not saying the police have handled it well/havent covered anything up, im saying in the heat of the moment, i dont blame the guy who shot him

[bennyfroobs]

really? he shot an unarmed man in the back as he was running away, and you dont blame him?


http://raniakhalek.com/2013/12/30/jerse ... in-prison/

this is where we're headed

[kay]

oh ffs "a mistake"

lol oops just went and shot another unarmed man in the back twice. fiddlesticks. better get my police buddies to cover up this one and plant a gun on him! quick guys, change your reports to say he had a gun on him

im not saying the police have handled it well/havent covered anything up, im saying in the heat of the moment, i dont blame the guy who shot him

I guess it's more a question of whether accidental/poorly judged killing is lawful or not.

[DJoe]

The killing was legally lawful.
the jury would have been wrong to say it wasn't lawful.
The way the law is worded around this subject makes it very hard to prosecute a police officer for unlawful killing.

I would seriously recommend anyone interested in this to actually read the record of inquest which includes the jury's desisions
http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk ... lusion.pdf

from the record of inquest

Unlawful. You have to be sure that the act was unlawful – that is that it was not
done in lawful self defence or defence of another or in order to prevent crime. It is
not for V53 to prove that he did act lawfully – before you conclude that his act
was unlawful, you must be sure that it was unlawful.

Any person is entitled to use reasonable force to defend himself or another from
injury, attack or threat of attack. If V53 may have been defending himself or one
of his colleagues then go on to consider two matters:

1) Did V53 honestly believe or may he honestly have believed, even if that
belief is mistaken, that at the time he fired the fatal shot, that he needed to use
force to defend himself or another; if your answer is NO then he cannot have
been acting in lawful self defence and you can put that issue to one side; if
your answer is YES then go on to consider:
2) Was the force used – the fatal shot – reasonable in all the circumstances?
Obviously if someone is under attack from someone he genuinely believes is
violent and armed – then that person cannot be expected to weigh up precisely
the amount of force needed to prevent that attack. But if he goes over top and
acts out of proportion to the threat then he would not be using reasonable force
and his action would be unlawful.

The question whether the degree of force used by V53 was reasonable in the
circumstances is to be decided by reference to the circumstances as V53 believed
them to be – but the degree of force is not to be regarded as reasonable in the
circumstances as V53 believed them to be if it was disproportionate in those
circumstances.

(Alternatively a police officer may use lawful force to prevent crime. Here two
points arise:
1) Did V53 shoot Mark Duggan in order to prevent crime; and
2) Was the force used reasonable or unreasonable in all the circumstances?)

[magma]

A life's a life. Why don't people complain about bus deaths and condemn all bus drivers like they do with police? I am sure bus drivers lie and make up bullshit to get away with it when they are at fault. Strange example i know, perhaps a better one would be surgeons or caring staff?

Because in all the examples you gave, it would be an accident - bus drivers don't crash their bus on purpose and then look shocked when they've got bodies to clear up. They don't aim their bus at known fare-dodgers on the street and then try and claim "lawful killing". A surgeon may cause death whilst trying to save life... whilst maybe an awful occurrence, it's hardly murder. Both are manslaughter at worst, and that would be with some serious negligence rolled in.

Nobody, police or otherwise, shoots a man in the chest without the knowledge that it will likely kill them. Unless he posed a direct threat to police (i.e. he was brandishing a gun), this is at best a summary execution and at worst a pre-meditated murder. Considering that we don't have the death penalty in this country, murder seems pretty appropriate.

The law is clearly too grey in this area. I like the idea of giving armed police cameras like has been suggested, but how much do we want to bet that whoever the first shooter is after their introduction suffers from a "technical fault" right before they pulled the trigger?

Biggest gang in London.

[Laszlo]

Biggest gang in London.

QFT

[Terpit]

ok so a few pages back someone posted a link saying a shot was fired at police and the bullet was lodged in a radio or something, what's that all about then?

[DJoe]

a day or two after he was shot. the police told everyone that mark duggan fired a shot at the police before he was killed

[Terpit]

So everyone here thinks he was innocent, not involved with gangs and unarmed when he was shot?

[m8son666]

The killing was legally lawful.
the jury would have been wrong to say it wasn't lawful.
The way the law is worded around this subject makes it very hard to prosecute a police officer for unlawful killing.

I would seriously recommend anyone interested in this to actually read the record of inquest which includes the jury's desisions
http://dugganinquest.independent.gov.uk ... lusion.pdf

from the record of inquest

so your issue is not with the police but with the law and courts?

[Laszlo]

So everyone here thinks he was innocent, not involved with gangs and unarmed when he was shot?

I'm not sure anyone thinks he was innocent, generally speaking, he was certainly a shit bag, but yes he was unarmed and, essentially, the police murdered him.

[DJoe]

@ terpit
no i think most people here think that he was involved in all that stuff. He had a gun in the taxi but by the time he got out of the taxi he didn't have the gun. the gun was found 25 ft from the taxi over a wall in a park. The gun was found in a sock and neither the sock nor the gun had his dna on it (some ppl claim the gun was planted, i dont think that is true.)
He was unarmed when he was shot

The problem most ppl have with it is that the police have lied from the start and the lack of culpability the police have for making mistakes. Justice should be carried out by the courts not by the police.

I would recommend reading record of inquest which has the questions the jury answered and how they answered, which i posted higher up on this page

@m8son
my issue is mainly with the police lying and with the lack of culpability they have for killing and assaulting people whilst on duty. part of this problem comes from the laws used to protect the police.

There's just little things like the several of the officers involved spent 8 hours writing up reports in the same room and stuff like that, that imo pervert the course of justice as well (even if this unavoidable)

[Terpit]

ok so he definitely had a gun with him in the taxi? what sort of scum bag tnuc carries a gun with him? seriously.
this thing was planned by the police, they knew what sort of person he was

[bennyfroobs]

ok so a few pages back someone posted a link saying a shot was fired at police and the bullet was lodged in a radio or something, what's that all about then?

the bullet came from a HK MP5

police issue.

friendly fire m8

[DJoe]

ok so he definitely had a gun with him in the taxi? what sort of scum bag tnuc carries a gun with him? seriously.
this thing was planned by the police, they knew what sort of person he was

Don't think anyone is debating that really, there's some suggestion that there has been a smear campaign against but you are right, he was carrying a gun. hes probably a nob. the proper way to deal with this in our country tho is to arrest him and charge him through the criminal justice system; not to just kill him.

Its scary seeing the met acting like american police and doing more harm than good