A look at piracy and this forum's outlook on it.

[pete_bubonic]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

It can go around the world legally, but your audience will be significantly reduced because not everyone can afford it. You're allowed to disagree with me, I understand completely. Just seeing if anyone else here is like-minded with myself, which it's not looking like is the case at all! The point of this forum posting youtube links quite often still stands, however. If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

That's just not true. You're now deliberately spreading misinformation to justify your stance.

[D3ATHSTEP]

This goes back to the issue of you clumping stealing music into the same category as stealing anything else. I've done my best to try and make you understand why there are grey areas regarding theft. If you don't understand now then you never will, and this conversation between us should probably just stop here. I do respect and understand your side, however.

It's not an issue with us not understanding, it's just that we straight don't agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I don't know what to say to you any more man, to me, a lot of your views are bizarre, and it kind of comes across that you're trying to justify stealing somebody's hard work.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Like I said, I have enough shit to pay for, if I spent money on music each month based on how much I listen to, I would never have enough money to go out and enjoy myself with friends. It shouldn't be a trade off.

you are an absolute dick mate. absolutely no time for people like you.

also you do realise that artists and labels themselves put their material on youtube? this doesn't mean "please rip it for free because i charge so much for it", they're trying to promote their music, just the same as playing it on radio shows or in mixes. as for the second comment, if you can't afford to get an extra large meal then you get a happy meal, you don't just jump behind the counter and steal burgers because you don't have enough money. your whole attitude to the music scene absolutely disgusts me

These are the kinds of post I was talking about when I said I wanted to keep things mature and constructive. Please don't post if you're going to get hostile and start name-calling for no reason. I'm trying to keep this a healthy debate without anyone getting hot-headed. Although, you're allowed to be disgusted by my attitude toward the music scene. It's a good thing there's no right or wrong way to view the music scene, it's all subjective. I'm not more wrong than you are. It's all personal view.

[pete_bubonic]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

Ditto.

Because you have a hobby making music in your bedroom and support piracy, professional full time musicians should be expect to not make an income from their hard work and time is illogical at best and massively disrespectful and offensive to the artists you supposedly support to anyone else.

It's entirely possible to make professional quality songs in a bedroom, I don't see what the environment you work in has to do with anything. I know Skrillex gets a lot of hate on here, but he makes his music on a Macbook Pro on his tour bus using headphones. So because I have a different opinion than you do, I'm not a professional? Not quite understanding what you're implying with that post.

You've misread my post. An analogy: A wood turner needs only a chisel, hammer, and a bit of wood to create a sculpture. because his initial cost is so low, should he never complain when someone steals his work? Or should all that time he's spent practicing, working towards making something of value and the actual carving of the sculpture be reimbursed fairly by selling said piece?

[garethom]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

It can go around the world legally, but your audience will be significantly reduced because not everyone can afford it. You're allowed to disagree with me, I understand completely. Just seeing if anyone else here is like-minded with myself, which it's not looking like is the case at all! The point of this forum posting youtube links quite often still stands, however. If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

You do (kind of) have a point about youtube, but to say don't ever use youtube to find songs anymore is a bit OTT. If I hear a song on youtube and then go and buy it, how is that piracy? The system of youtube getting ad revenue from copyrighted material without consent from the copyright holder is flawed, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's piracy if somebody says "check this tune" in a thread, and then bare people go and buy it.

[D3ATHSTEP]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

It can go around the world legally, but your audience will be significantly reduced because not everyone can afford it. You're allowed to disagree with me, I understand completely. Just seeing if anyone else here is like-minded with myself, which it's not looking like is the case at all! The point of this forum posting youtube links quite often still stands, however. If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

That's just not true. You're now deliberately spreading misinformation to justify your stance.

Which part isn't true? That part about how things that are free will reach more people than things that cost money, or the part about how people uploading songs without the artist's permission onto youtube and giving them to people free of charge is a form a piracy?

[pete_bubonic]

It's a good thing there's no right or wrong way to view the music scene, it's all subjective. I'm not more wrong than you are. It's all personal view.

Lengthy discussion of moral compasses and international copyright debates aside. Piracy is not only illegal, but judging by the posts here, the majority view it as wrong. As a result, legally and societally, you are in the wrong.

[D3ATHSTEP]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

It can go around the world legally, but your audience will be significantly reduced because not everyone can afford it. You're allowed to disagree with me, I understand completely. Just seeing if anyone else here is like-minded with myself, which it's not looking like is the case at all! The point of this forum posting youtube links quite often still stands, however. If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

You do (kind of) have a point about youtube, but to say don't ever use youtube to find songs anymore is a bit OTT. If I hear a song on youtube and then go and buy it, how is that piracy? The system of youtube getting ad revenue from copyrighted material without consent from the copyright holder is flawed, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's piracy if somebody says "check this tune" in a thread, and then bare people go and buy it.

So it's not piracy because you're atoning for your sins, so to speak? I understand why that would make people feel like it's not piracy, but it most certainly is. The point remains that you didn't pay money to hear that youtube track, and you wouldn't even know about the artist unless someone illegally uploaded that track. Piracy can be your friend. Everyone seems to be so against it here, then they go and post youtube links. I'd just like to call to attention some of the hypocrisy that can be found not only here, but anti-piracy individuals everywhere. And you still pirate movies =P. My point still stands.

[pete_bubonic]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

It can go around the world legally, but your audience will be significantly reduced because not everyone can afford it. You're allowed to disagree with me, I understand completely. Just seeing if anyone else here is like-minded with myself, which it's not looking like is the case at all! The point of this forum posting youtube links quite often still stands, however. If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy.

That's just not true. You're now deliberately spreading misinformation to justify your stance.

Which part isn't true? That part about how things that are free will reach more people than things that cost money, or the part about how people uploading songs without the artist's permission onto youtube and giving them to people free of charge is a form a piracy?

There are plenty off legal and approved portals to listen to music, some setup by labels, some by the artists themselves. To say, and I quote "If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy." is false.

[D3ATHSTEP]

It's a good thing there's no right or wrong way to view the music scene, it's all subjective. I'm not more wrong than you are. It's all personal view.

Lengthy discussion of moral compasses and international copyright debates aside. Piracy is not only illegal, but judging by the posts here, the majority view it as wrong. As a result, legally and societally, you are in the wrong.

So smoking marijuana is wrong? You're correct, but that's terrible reasoning and I have a feeling you know it.

[D3ATHSTEP]

There are plenty off legal and approved portals to listen to music, some setup by labels, some by the artists themselves. To say, and I quote "If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy." is false.[/quote]\

How is streaming music that was illegally uploaded to youtube not piracy?

[Juice Terry]

It's a good thing there's no right or wrong way to view the music scene, it's all subjective. I'm not more wrong than you are. It's all personal view.

Lengthy discussion of moral compasses and international copyright debates aside. Piracy is not only illegal, but judging by the posts here, the majority view it as wrong. As a result, legally and societally, you are in the wrong.

Kid needs to get a grip.

[scattybeanhead]

This goes back to the issue of you clumping stealing music into the same category as stealing anything else. I've done my best to try and make you understand why there are grey areas regarding theft. If you don't understand now then you never will, and this conversation between us should probably just stop here. I do respect and understand your side, however.

It's not an issue with us not understanding, it's just that we straight don't agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I don't know what to say to you any more man, to me, a lot of your views are bizarre, and it kind of comes across that you're trying to justify stealing somebody's hard work.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Like I said, I have enough shit to pay for, if I spent money on music each month based on how much I listen to, I would never have enough money to go out and enjoy myself with friends. It shouldn't be a trade off.

you are an absolute dick mate. absolutely no time for people like you.

also you do realise that artists and labels themselves put their material on youtube? this doesn't mean "please rip it for free because i charge so much for it", they're trying to promote their music, just the same as playing it on radio shows or in mixes. as for the second comment, if you can't afford to get an extra large meal then you get a happy meal, you don't just jump behind the counter and steal burgers because you don't have enough money. your whole attitude to the music scene absolutely disgusts me

These are the kinds of post I was talking about when I said I wanted to keep things mature and constructive. Please don't post if you're going to get hostile and start name-calling for no reason. I'm trying to keep this a healthy debate without anyone getting hot-headed. Although, you're allowed to be disgusted by my attitude toward the music scene. It's a good thing there's no right or wrong way to view the music scene, it's all subjective. I'm not more wrong than you are. It's all personal view.

sorry, didn't mean to get the name calling out, that was immature. im gonna stop participating in this thread because im getting far too worked up about it.
also please stop saying youtube is illegal. most uploaders clearly state that the content doesn't belong to them and they can remove it if they wish.

[D3ATHSTEP]

Well I'm the one who made the thread, and that's basically what my point has been this whole time. So people torrent music. Big deal, in my opinion. It's doing more good for you than bad. I would LOVE if people torrented my music. To even have my music be heard would be more than I could possibly ask for, and it seems to me that some of the bigger names in the music industry who are complaining about torrenting are coming off as spoiled brats. Just be thankful your music is able to reach people all over the world. That in and of itself is incredible.

It's only because of piracy that you're expecting people to be content with their music going around the world. It can still go around the world entirely legally.

That is actually the entire point of this thread. I AM trying to justify stealing music, and I'm saying that this forum does it every day when they post youtube links.

Ok, then I disagree with you 100%.

Ditto.

Because you have a hobby making music in your bedroom and support piracy, professional full time musicians should be expect to not make an income from their hard work and time is illogical at best and massively disrespectful and offensive to the artists you supposedly support to anyone else.

It's entirely possible to make professional quality songs in a bedroom, I don't see what the environment you work in has to do with anything. I know Skrillex gets a lot of hate on here, but he makes his music on a Macbook Pro on his tour bus using headphones. So because I have a different opinion than you do, I'm not a professional? Not quite understanding what you're implying with that post.

You've misread my post. An analogy: A wood turner needs only a chisel, hammer, and a bit of wood to create a sculpture. because his initial cost is so low, should he never complain when someone steals his work? Or should all that time he's spent practicing, working towards making something of value and the actual carving of the sculpture be reimbursed fairly by selling said piece?

I gotcha, and I'm saying that I understand your point completely and agree that it's normal for people to get defensive over their hard work. I'm simply saying that I don't personally feel that way, and if you don't understand why, you can check all the posts I've made so far in this thread. That's also a weird example, because said wood turner only has one way to make money. Musicians have MULTIPLE ways to make money, making the actual music is just the first step. I have no problem with giving away my music for free, then trying to make money with live performances and composing for media platforms.

[pete_bubonic]

How is streaming music that was illegally uploaded to youtube not piracy?

At what point in the following verbatim quote from you:

"If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy."

Do you say said material was illegally uploaded?

The point I am driving at, is there are plenty of legal ways to get the music, plenty of ways to listen to it and for free. Whether it be radio shows, on demand services (such as spotify), official youtube channels, artist soundclouds and alike. But you seem bent on stating that pirating music is the only way you would get to listen to or produce music. Which if we are completely honest with each other, we know is untrue.

[wizeguy]

Personally i fuckin hate people who rip music from youtube or soundcloud, if they like the music they should support the artist and buy it, and how the fuck can you really take an pleasure form listening to shit quality music anyway...
even if the tunes were optional how much you paid or even free (like your night tracks releases garethom), if i like it i'm still gonna give a bit of money, and no one can claim they are too poor to pay for music i haven't had a job for months and still manage to buy a few records here and there....

[D3ATHSTEP]

It's a good thing there's no right or wrong way to view the music scene, it's all subjective. I'm not more wrong than you are. It's all personal view.

Lengthy discussion of moral compasses and international copyright debates aside. Piracy is not only illegal, but judging by the posts here, the majority view it as wrong. As a result, legally and societally, you are in the wrong.

Kid needs to get a grip.

The majority HERE view it as wrong, but I guarentee if you took a real-world poll in the world outside of dubstepforum.com(the same forum that regularly posts links of songs that were uploaded to youtube without the artist's consent), I would actually be the majority. Millions download music illegally. So, no. Don't try to play that card.

[garethom]

So it's not piracy because you're atoning for your sins, so to speak? I understand why that would make people feel like it's not piracy, but it most certainly is. The point remains that you didn't pay money to hear that youtube track, and you wouldn't even know about the artist unless someone illegally uploaded that track. Piracy can be your friend. Everyone seems to be so against it here, then they go and post youtube links. I'd just like to call to attention some of the hypocrisy that can be found not only here, but anti-piracy individuals everywhere. And you still pirate movies =P. My point still stands.

Again, where do you take the view that everything is uploaded to youtube illegally? What if I've already paid for the track that I'm posting a youtube link to on this forum? Do you consider that piracy? You seem to have a pretty warped view if you think that posting a youtube video on a forum for promotional purposes is on a par with ripping thousands of tracks.

And what makes you think I pirate movies? I'm sure if you checked out my bedroom and saw my DVD collection, you might think otherwise.

Your point that musicians will have MULTIPLE ways to make money has been completely disproven. Some might not have the ability to dj, or the equipment to perform live, or may disagree morally with licensing their tunes to adverts. I make money from my job, but that's like saying that if I don't want to do 20 hours overtime a week, then I shouldn't moan if the company I work for decided not to pay me at all.

You think the music world owes you something, when it owes you nothing. Especially somebody that doesn't put anything into it.

[D3ATHSTEP]

How is streaming music that was illegally uploaded to youtube not piracy?

At what point in the following verbatim quote from you:

"If you don't support piracy, then don't ever use youtube to find/listen to songs any more, and don't post links to anyone. That's piracy."

Do you say said material was illegally uploaded?

The point I am driving at, is there are plenty of legal ways to get the music, plenty of ways to listen to it and for free. Whether it be radio shows, on demand services (such as spotify), official youtube channels, artist soundclouds and alike. But you seem bent on stating that pirating music is the only way you would get to listen to or produce music. Which if we are completely honest with each other, we know is untrue.

I'm sorry, I thought you said youtube wasn't a form of piracy.

[D3ATHSTEP]

So it's not piracy because you're atoning for your sins, so to speak? I understand why that would make people feel like it's not piracy, but it most certainly is. The point remains that you didn't pay money to hear that youtube track, and you wouldn't even know about the artist unless someone illegally uploaded that track. Piracy can be your friend. Everyone seems to be so against it here, then they go and post youtube links. I'd just like to call to attention some of the hypocrisy that can be found not only here, but anti-piracy individuals everywhere. And you still pirate movies =P. My point still stands.

Again, where do you take the view that everything is uploaded to youtube illegally? What if I've already paid for the track that I'm posting a youtube link to on this forum? Do you consider that piracy? You seem to have a pretty warped view if you think that posting a youtube video on a forum for promotional purposes is on a par with ripping thousands of tracks.

And what makes you think I pirate movies? I'm sure if you checked out my bedroom and saw my DVD collection, you might think otherwise.

Your point that musicians will have MULTIPLE ways to make money has been completely disproven. Some might not have the ability to dj, or the equipment to perform live, or may disagree morally with licensing their tunes to adverts. I make money from my job, but that's like saying that if I don't want to do 20 hours overtime a week, then I shouldn't moan if the company I work for decided not to pay me at all.

You think the music world owes you something, when it owes you nothing. Especially somebody that doesn't put anything into it.

If you bought a song and upload it to youtube, people who didn't buy the song can hear it. That's piracy. I don't know how you're not grasping that concept. It's like burning a CD or a DVD. My point WASN'T disproven at all. If some people don't want to take advantage of the multiple ways to make money with music, that's their decision. The options didn't go away, the individual(s) is(are) just choosing not to utilize them. That's a personal probelm.

*EDIT* Also, the music world doesn't owe me anything, but I give back to the music world by taking in all the music I hear and then putting my own out influenced by what I heard. It's a cycle, it's how music's been going for years. Classic rock influenced by blues, thrash metal influenced by classic rock and punk, death metal influenced by thrash metal, etc. It keeps going and going. Money isn't the only way you can give back to the music world, and I'm sorry if you think it is.

[pete_bubonic]

Musicians have MULTIPLE ways to make money, making the actual music is just the first step. I have no problem with giving away my music for free, then trying to make money with live performances and composing for media platforms.

I too have no problem with how the producer wants to reveal his music to the world, but I also believe it should be the artists choice. You seem to be stating that either you apply your business model to production/selling music or deal with never making any money from the industry. You are effectively laying claim to other people's hard work regardless of their intentions, value or invested effort. Which I believe is not just narrow minded, but morally wrong.

I also think the argument has got to it's crux and cyclic point. We look at the sale of creative material from two different and incompatible view points, so I'm going to bow out of this thread.