Jas0n wrote:I haven't listened - yet - but I am interested in the fact that all of the complaints about it revolve around nebulous, non-objective, essentially indefensible bromides. ("It has no groove"??)
Makes some of you guys look like cranky, pretentious douche bags.
No interest in defending the album at all, just an observation.
What? You're gonna not listen to the album then try to argue that 'no groove' is not a valid criticism? Listen to this:
The drums are extremely mechanical and fixed, the rhythms are basic and everything sounds like it just came off an assembly line. No groove. Now here's a track from a primarily groove based album:
Notice how the drums (in fact just about everything in the song) are laid back to the point that they're almost out of time but not quite. ?uestlove, who played drums and composed for much of the album, has stated that this was intentional. The rhythms are organic and have a lot of movement, you can't help but nod your head to it. It just gives off this air of laid-back coolness. Now apply that to dubstep:
Compare this to any of the tracks on this Korn album and try to tell me 'no groove' is a "nebulous criticism"
Jas0n wrote:I haven't listened - yet - but I am interested in the fact that all of the complaints about it revolve around nebulous, non-objective, essentially indefensible bromides. ("It has no groove"??)
Makes some of you guys look like cranky, pretentious douche bags.
No interest in defending the album at all, just an observation.
What? You're gonna not listen to the album then try to argue that 'no groove' is not a valid criticism? Listen to this:
The drums are extremely mechanical and fixed, the rhythms are basic and everything sounds like it just came off an assembly line. No groove. Now here's a track from a primarily groove based album:
Notice how the drums (in fact just about everything in the song) are laid back to the point that they're almost out of time but not quite. ?uestlove, who played drums and composed for much of the album, has stated that this was intentional. The rhythms are organic and have a lot of movement, you can't help but nod your head to it. It just gives off this air of laid-back coolness. Now apply that to dubstep:
Compare this to any of the tracks on this Korn album and try to tell me 'no groove' is a "nebulous criticism"
While I appreciate the effort you put into formulating your argument, the only real qualifiable difference I see between the Korn track and the Benga track, speaking to the movement of the percussion, is the presence of swing. Naturally swing is prevalent in the D'Angelo track as well. Sure, things like swing (and syncopation and whatever other tool you'd like to employ) can be useful if you want to make percussion in a certain style. But if you don't want to work in that style - which is to say, if you prefer to work with a more mechanical or strictly mathematical style - then the presence of things like little hat ticks right before a snare aren't useful to you, nor should they be employed to please the members of an internet forum.
If the criticism, as leveled, is no more than "I like songs with swing in them and this one doesn't have any" then there's no air of judgment, it says simply that you weren't looking for that kind of song when you were out for new material.
But "groove" is ultimately an intangible, as it's a reference to the enjoyment, rather than the content, of the music. Phrases like "it just doesn't sit together," "it just doesn't work," "lacks flow," "nothing works," "all sounds the same" ... not one of these is a legitimate, objective criticism of anything, yet each one of them carries the weight of condemnation - and I'm just paraphrasing standouts from the first page of this thread. My point is - and "gnome" can kindly take note of this - none of these criticisms are even remotely constructive. They're dismissals, nothing more. I realize nobody involved with those tracks is reading this forum and getting upset by what anybody here has to say about it, but it seems that people just sort of form a circle, whip out, and hose piss all over anything related to Skrillex when he comes up. I wouldn't be surprised if "brostep" was invented here as a pejorative, just to draw an arbitrary line in the sand between shit you guys like and shit you don't.
I know I'm just asking for some all-American hipster to tell me that if I don't like it, I can just GET OUT, but so many people on this forum kill me the way they're so quick to turn their nose up at something that doesn't meet with their holy-grailesque standards for that which is "dubstep." It's unfortunate, because for as sharply as my skill as an amateur producer has accelerated having found this forum, I'll likely never give much of anything back, because frankly I don't care to subject my work or my tastes to the kind of obnoxious, douchy, elitist, prickish scrutiny one finds in this thread.
Incidentally, I did not much care for the Korn track you posted. But because others may very well enjoy it, may see value in it, may desire to work in a similar medium... I'm not going to make blanket criticisms of the track or the album it's on. To do so would be to act in the exact opposite of the interest of creativity.
It's worth asking - is the point of this forum to encourage people to make music? Or is it to preserve the ideal that is "dubstep"?
Jas0n wrote:I haven't listened - yet - but I am interested in the fact that all of the complaints about it revolve around nebulous, non-objective, essentially indefensible bromides. ("It has no groove"??)
Makes some of you guys look like cranky, pretentious douche bags.
No interest in defending the album at all, just an observation.
What? You're gonna not listen to the album then try to argue that 'no groove' is not a valid criticism? Listen to this:
The drums are extremely mechanical and fixed, the rhythms are basic and everything sounds like it just came off an assembly line. No groove. Now here's a track from a primarily groove based album:
Notice how the drums (in fact just about everything in the song) are laid back to the point that they're almost out of time but not quite. ?uestlove, who played drums and composed for much of the album, has stated that this was intentional. The rhythms are organic and have a lot of movement, you can't help but nod your head to it. It just gives off this air of laid-back coolness. Now apply that to dubstep:
Compare this to any of the tracks on this Korn album and try to tell me 'no groove' is a "nebulous criticism"
While I appreciate the effort you put into formulating your argument, the only real qualifiable difference I see between the Korn track and the Benga track, speaking to the movement of the percussion, is the presence of swing. Naturally swing is prevalent in the D'Angelo track as well. Sure, things like swing (and syncopation and whatever other tool you'd like to employ) can be useful if you want to make percussion in a certain style. But if you don't want to work in that style - which is to say, if you prefer to work with a more mechanical or strictly mathematical style - then the presence of things like little hat ticks right before a snare aren't useful to you, nor should they be employed to please the members of an internet forum.
If the criticism, as leveled, is no more than "I like songs with swing in them and this one doesn't have any" then there's no air of judgment, it says simply that you weren't looking for that kind of song when you were out for new material.
But "groove" is ultimately an intangible, as it's a reference to the enjoyment, rather than the content, of the music. Phrases like "it just doesn't sit together," "it just doesn't work," "lacks flow," "nothing works," "all sounds the same" ... not one of these is a legitimate, objective criticism of anything, yet each one of them carries the weight of condemnation - and I'm just paraphrasing standouts from the first page of this thread. My point is - and "gnome" can kindly take note of this - none of these criticisms are even remotely constructive. They're dismissals, nothing more. I realize nobody involved with those tracks is reading this forum and getting upset by what anybody here has to say about it, but it seems that people just sort of form a circle, whip out, and hose piss all over anything related to Skrillex when he comes up. I wouldn't be surprised if "brostep" was invented here as a pejorative, just to draw an arbitrary line in the sand between shit you guys like and shit you don't.
I know I'm just asking for some all-American hipster to tell me that if I don't like it, I can just GET OUT, but so many people on this forum kill me the way they're so quick to turn their nose up at something that doesn't meet with their holy-grailesque standards for that which is "dubstep." It's unfortunate, because for as sharply as my skill as an amateur producer has accelerated having found this forum, I'll likely never give much of anything back, because frankly I don't care to subject my work or my tastes to the kind of obnoxious, douchy, elitist, prickish scrutiny one finds in this thread.
Incidentally, I did not much care for the Korn track you posted. But because others may very well enjoy it, may see value in it, may desire to work in a similar medium... I'm not going to make blanket criticisms of the track or the album it's on. To do so would be to act in the exact opposite of the interest of creativity.
It's worth asking - is the point of this forum to encourage people to make music? Or is it to preserve the ideal that is "dubstep"?
tl;dr
you haven't listened to the korn tracks yet, have you?
Had a quick listen and without sounding like another generic hater..its horrible it really is..i aswel grew up listening to korn. This just seems like a blatent money making scheme taking whats popular at the mo and trying to integrate it with nu metal
That tune My wall is ear bleeding type shit i just don't see how anyone could enjoy this
Jas0n wrote:
While I appreciate the effort you put into formulating your argument, the only real qualifiable difference I see between the Korn track and the Benga track, speaking to the movement of the percussion, is the presence of swing. Naturally swing is prevalent in the D'Angelo track as well. Sure, things like swing (and syncopation and whatever other tool you'd like to employ) can be useful if you want to make percussion in a certain style. But if you don't want to work in that style - which is to say, if you prefer to work with a more mechanical or strictly mathematical style - then the presence of things like little hat ticks right before a snare aren't useful to you, nor should they be employed to please the members of an internet forum.
If the criticism, as leveled, is no more than "I like songs with swing in them and this one doesn't have any" then there's no air of judgment, it says simply that you weren't looking for that kind of song when you were out for new material.
But "groove" is ultimately an intangible, as it's a reference to the enjoyment, rather than the content, of the music. Phrases like "it just doesn't sit together," "it just doesn't work," "lacks flow," "nothing works," "all sounds the same" ... not one of these is a legitimate, objective criticism of anything, yet each one of them carries the weight of condemnation - and I'm just paraphrasing standouts from the first page of this thread. My point is - and "gnome" can kindly take note of this - none of these criticisms are even remotely constructive. They're dismissals, nothing more. I realize nobody involved with those tracks is reading this forum and getting upset by what anybody here has to say about it, but it seems that people just sort of form a circle, whip out, and hose piss all over anything related to Skrillex when he comes up. I wouldn't be surprised if "brostep" was invented here as a pejorative, just to draw an arbitrary line in the sand between shit you guys like and shit you don't.
I know I'm just asking for some all-American hipster to tell me that if I don't like it, I can just GET OUT, but so many people on this forum kill me the way they're so quick to turn their nose up at something that doesn't meet with their holy-grailesque standards for that which is "dubstep." It's unfortunate, because for as sharply as my skill as an amateur producer has accelerated having found this forum, I'll likely never give much of anything back, because frankly I don't care to subject my work or my tastes to the kind of obnoxious, douchy, elitist, prickish scrutiny one finds in this thread.
Incidentally, I did not much care for the Korn track you posted. But because others may very well enjoy it, may see value in it, may desire to work in a similar medium... I'm not going to make blanket criticisms of the track or the album it's on. To do so would be to act in the exact opposite of the interest of creativity.
It's worth asking - is the point of this forum to encourage people to make music? Or is it to preserve the ideal that is "dubstep"?
I'm pretty sure this thread wasn't started so the masses could give constructive criticism to the likes of noisa, spor, skrillex etc on how they could have better combined their styles with korns. You said you didn't like the track that was posted, i'm sure you have your reasons just like the people who said it didn't flow or have any groove.. what exactly is the difference? I think people like you on this forum are actually quicker to jump on others for criticizing other peoples shit, more than the ones doing the critiquing. I think the songs are shit, they sound neither like dubstep or the korn we all loved back in the day. rather it sounds like a poor attempt at jumping on the newest bandwagon while trying to incorporate a bands past style.. and IMO it failed. Don't like my opinion? that's fine, no need to bitch about it
So basically what you're saying, Jas0n, is that all forms of art criticism are invalid, and we should just let bullshit slide wherever it falls? You didn't like that tune yourself, so obviously you have some criticisms of it. You chose not to voice them, but we did. Don't get up in our shit about it.
Now by saying all of those phrases are illegitimate criticisms, you've basically ruled out the sweet spot of criticism. Like, if I just said 'its bad' you'd say I'm not backing my arguments up, but if I singled out individual parts of songs that I didn't like (for example, a Skrillex screech here or a whiney emo lyric there) then you'd say I was nitpicking. The middle ground between those two is where proper, constructive criticism lies and you're basically saying we shouldn't be allowed to do that? You say that criticism works against creativity, but I'd argue the opposite. Its one of the forces that makes artists want to improve and be more creative rather than just settle for easy money.
I mean, how exactly does one objectively criticise something which is in its nature subjective? There's no mathematical equation for good dubstep. So basically all you're doing is trying to tell us that we shouldn't give our opinions, to which I say fuck off.
I've said this before, but this whole 'don't be a hater' culture that gets brought in every time someone says they don't like something is seriously detrimental to our society. When people get called 'haters' for not liking some new Rebecca Black song (by Rebecca Black herself, no less), they feel guilty, like they're the asshole, and as a result are more likely to let bullshit slide. Its lowering our standards as a society.
I skipped reading most of this thread in order to keep my opinion un-jaded.
Overall I liked it, but I have also determined that the way they probably went about making this album seems a bit flawed. It seems like KoRn didn't really give the other artists their place to shine. Feed Me is fantastic at writing progressive melodies (see Muscle Rolers) or creating a reeses for a track like one of the ones Downlink was on(under Spor, of course). I feel like Noisia had some good contributions but still didn't seem to do much from a creative stand point. Excision, Downlink, and Datsik are great with wobbles but didn't seem to have the opportunity to use them for any aggressive action...though their distortion work sounds great on a few tracks.
On top of all that where the fuck is the drummer? really? Rock drums recorded in a KoRn studio would sound wayyy better than half these samples.The bands guitar and bass sound great in Get Up and Narcissistic Cannibal but in some of the other tracks the just seem like they intrude. Yeah, its the band's album but still...
Davis's voice is top notch as usual. Really shines on the Skrillex and more aggressive tracks though...which is a shame.
"You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern.Do you know what it is? A virus.Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet." -Agent Smith.From: The Matrix
Davis's voice is top notch as usual. Really shines on the Skrillex and more aggressive tracks though...which is a shame.
Really surprised by this. I've always thought he was the weakest part of Korn and on this album he was unbearably terrible.
What is it you like about him that you though came through here? Asking this as a genuine question too.
i was also gonna comment on the weakness of his voice. but mainly after listening to a few songs the thing that stands out to me the most is it's just not very heavy. each chorus is very weak with just a few chords and some sub-standard vocals from davies, they really have totally abandoned their old style/fans and they've taken away the metal elements but not really replaced it with anything except for the odd screeching, which i feel leaves the tracks feeling somewhat uncompleted in a way and that often (despite the random noises/samples) there's just not very much going on, it's not particularly technical and there's not a lot of skill involved. im still quite a fan of metal and may well go to download or something this year but i just cant see how this community is going to accept this album, as that review that i read before said they've totally forgotten who they are
Maccaveli wrote:So basically what you're saying, Jas0n, is that all forms of art criticism are invalid, and we should just let bullshit slide wherever it falls? You didn't like that tune yourself, so obviously you have some criticisms of it. You chose not to voice them, but we did. Don't get up in our shit about it.
Now by saying all of those phrases are illegitimate criticisms, you've basically ruled out the sweet spot of criticism. Like, if I just said 'its bad' you'd say I'm not backing my arguments up, but if I singled out individual parts of songs that I didn't like (for example, a Skrillex screech here or a whiney emo lyric there) then you'd say I was nitpicking. The middle ground between those two is where proper, constructive criticism lies and you're basically saying we shouldn't be allowed to do that? You say that criticism works against creativity, but I'd argue the opposite. Its one of the forces that makes artists want to improve and be more creative rather than just settle for easy money.
I mean, how exactly does one objectively criticise something which is in its nature subjective? There's no mathematical equation for good dubstep. So basically all you're doing is trying to tell us that we shouldn't give our opinions, to which I say fuck off.
I've said this before, but this whole 'don't be a hater' culture that gets brought in every time someone says they don't like something is seriously detrimental to our society. When people get called 'haters' for not liking some new Rebecca Black song (by Rebecca Black herself, no less), they feel guilty, like they're the asshole, and as a result are more likely to let bullshit slide. Its lowering our standards as a society.
Just saying "it's bad" is an undefended argument, and "I didn't like the Skrillex screech" is another undefended argument, it is just a more specific one.
I don't buy into the idea that the enjoyment or appreciation of music is purely subjective. Aesthetics are not an intellectual primary, but they're not a response - emotion, which is a response, seems to be the only way people will acknowledge that they even approach the subject of music and that is an insult to all parties involved.
Just as a person's beauty is tied to certain biological fundamentals (e.g. symmetry) for good reason and to good effect, a sense of aesthetic propriety can be applied to music. Here our first and most easy targets are what could be called simple mechanics - being in tune and on time. Sound structure gets us way deeper and fast. Here we can talk about dynamics, things like push vs. pull and call vs. response.
First step should be to define your terms, second step should be to form an argument, third should be to defend it. "It's bad," as I have said, is indefensible and thus really just worthless as commentary.
To summarize - it is pathetic that people either can't or won't approach this material intellectually. I really hope you as a community aren't this apathetic, anti-intellectual, and lazy when it comes to your own production.
