Alternative proposal for benefits allocation

[Mr Hyde]

Employers are taxed about 20% to pay you

Ey? Companies pay corporation tax on profits leftover after wages and other costs have been dealt with - the only person paying tax on a PAYE salary is the employee.

I don't know the ins-and outs of tax for everyone, but I work at a place where I process payments for consultants and temps, if someone charges £100 a day then the company needs to pay them 20% VAT on top of that payment so we pay out £120 to the employee.

Yes, but (assuming they turnover more than £40k per year) the company gets to claim the VAT back from the taxman.

Only consumers should pay VAT.

The way I understood it is that companies can only claim back VAT on expenses like food/petrol, not on employees wages. We only claim back the VAT if the consultants are based outside the UK. But like I say, I don't really know...my point is that people pay a lot of tax, if it's in coproration tax, NI, VAT, stamp duty or whatever.

[lovelydivot]

I worked with a girl who had a kid - the dad was nowhere to be found...

The state paid for her house (albeit in a bad neighborhood)
She bought a brand new car for $18K at a place that charges exhorbitant interest fees...

AND she was actively looking for a boyfriend to live with her(which is illegal - to not claim - in a state funded house)
so that his money could be all play...

and that was before the drug dealing...

and boy did she love to poo-poo at my car...

I bought mine used(2 years old, 28K miles)for $12K with 100% my own earned money while paying rent.

So - I don't give a shit about her shiny car.

[Pedro Sánchez]

sorry about that lovelyidiot but it sounds like she is breaking LAWS, you know what you can do to stop that don't you?

[Dystinkt]

Not supporting the voucher idea, but if I gave someone money to get them through the week and they spent it on an xbox and weed I'd be pretty fucked off

why are wasted cash 'benefits' seen as such a huge issue compared to the other things society lets us fritter away? A wasted education costs a LOT more than a family allowance wasted on Special Brew.... so why do we laugh at the naughty kid in class asking "What am I ever going to use Maths for?", but glare at the family he comes from? A high-stress career spent slurping espesso and yamming business dinners might lead to medical ailments that cause an unfair burden on a person's family and the NHS in later life; yet this sort of behaviour is lionised rather than regarded as selfish and short-sighted.

A wasted education leads to a family allowance wasted on Special Brew. We glare at families that choose not to work, and instead choose to stick two fingers up to the society that pays for their comfortable and easy lifestyle, built on abusing a system that the vast majority of other unemployed people use wisely and in the way it was intended. Wasted benefits are so demonised because not everyone that works is rich, I work a shitty minimum wage job to pay my way in life, and what I pay in tax goes on someone who refuses to work at all? Why the fuck should I pay for some people not to work? Downtimes all well and good but not when your entire life is spent in recreation. A high stress career might lead to medical problems in later life, but if that persons pays their taxes and at least fucking pays in to the system, that's the kind of person I'd rather help. You deserve help from society if you contribute productively to it, and these people offer nothing and only live to take,take,take. People who are victims of circumstance and have fallen on hard times are far removed from the small minority who point blank refuse to work.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?
that was a question in general to people who think these 'lazy' workshyers should be forced to work.

[Dystinkt]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

[magma]

Employers are taxed about 20% to pay you

Ey? Companies pay corporation tax on profits leftover after wages and other costs have been dealt with - the only person paying tax on a PAYE salary is the employee.

I don't know the ins-and outs of tax for everyone, but I work at a place where I process payments for consultants and temps, if someone charges £100 a day then the company needs to pay them 20% VAT on top of that payment so we pay out £120 to the employee.

Yes, but (assuming they turnover more than £40k per year) the company gets to claim the VAT back from the taxman.

Only consumers should pay VAT.

The way I understood it is that companies can only claim back VAT on expenses like food/petrol, not on employees wages. We only claim back the VAT if the consultants are based outside the UK. But like I say, I don't really know...my point is that people pay a lot of tax, if it's in coproration tax, NI, VAT, stamp duty or whatever.

I'm director of a company, so I have to do these sorts of things... companies, unless they turnover less than 40k (and should probably be sole traders) don't pay VAT. They pay Corporation Tax on their profits which is at a much lower rate than income tax.

When I pay myself wages, the company itself pays no tax on that money... it's all paid by "me" via income tax and national insurance (there's a small employers contribution to NI). That's why it's such a kick in the teeth for someone like Sir Phillip Green to base his companies like Top Shop offshore... he and the Company pay 0 tax because he (possibly similar to your misunderstanding) thinks his employees already pay enough on his behalf.

[magma]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

Would you rather a few people abused the system or a few people who were actually in need went hungry?

You'll never make it perfect.

[Pedro Sánchez]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

If someone hasn't the skills to be employable but the skills to languish on JSA for years, would you seriously want to be working along side someone with that mentality?
Remember the disruptive kids at school that had to be taken out of the classroom because the teachers couldn't do their job and others suffered, apply that to a workforce?

[lovelydivot]

I am no narc - seriously...

but she did lose 6K right off the bat when she bought that car...

The truth in this matter is...
That the child was going to suffer his stupid mother regardless...


The best thing to do is build a better future
and try to help the young people coming out of that...



You know - Everyone is a certain amount of crazy.

I said that as flatly as possible
- but I do mean it...I want it to get better.

[Pistonsbeneath]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

If someone hasn't the skills to be employable but the skills to languish on JSA for years, would you seriously want to be working along side someone with that mentality?
Remember the disruptive kids at school that had to be taken out of the classroom because the teachers couldn't do their job and others suffered, apply that to a workforce?

Are you suggesting a 3 strikes then you're shot in the back of the head system?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Not at all , I'm saying that these people have to be written off as a loss in order for the system to exist, if they turn to crime because their JSA is removed then the tax payer is still paying for them if they end up in prison, some people are just never going to work.

[Pistonsbeneath]

Not at all , I'm saying that these people have to written off as a loss in order for the system to exist, if they turn to crime because their JSA is removed then the tax payer is still paying for them if they end up in prison, some people are just never going to work.

I think the problem can be solved but we'd need to redesign the system and we'd see a huge improvement in a few generations, I don't believe people like them have always existed...they've been created

[Dystinkt]

Not at all , I'm saying that these people have to be written off as a loss in order for the system to exist, if they turn to crime because their JSA is removed then the tax payer is still paying for them if they end up in prison, some people are just never going to work.

If someone shows the initiative to find a job and a genuine desire to work, they deserve a chance. giving up on these people before they even start will allow the problem to embed itself for generations to come.

[scspkr99]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

There's more unemployed people than there are jobs that a small minority may not want to work is of no real consequence

[Pedro Sánchez]

Not at all , I'm saying that these people have to written off as a loss in order for the system to exist, if they turn to crime because their JSA is removed then the tax payer is still paying for them if they end up in prison, some people are just never going to work.

I think the problem can be solved but we'd need to redesign the system and we'd see a huge improvement in a few generations, I don't believe people like them have always existed...they've been created

100% agree.

[Dystinkt]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

There's more unemployed people than there are jobs that a small minority may not want to work is of no real consequence

If they want to work then why should we give up on them?

[Pedro Sánchez]

Not at all , I'm saying that these people have to be written off as a loss in order for the system to exist, if they turn to crime because their JSA is removed then the tax payer is still paying for them if they end up in prison, some people are just never going to work.

If someone shows the initiative to find a job and a genuine desire to work, they deserve a chance. giving up on these people before they even start will allow the problem to embed itself for generations to come.

I'm talking about those where the education system has failed them and they have no desire to work not the ones who are finding it hard looking for work.

[Dystinkt]

Not at all , I'm saying that these people have to be written off as a loss in order for the system to exist, if they turn to crime because their JSA is removed then the tax payer is still paying for them if they end up in prison, some people are just never going to work.

If someone shows the initiative to find a job and a genuine desire to work, they deserve a chance. giving up on these people before they even start will allow the problem to embed itself for generations to come.

I'm talking about those where the education system has failed them and they have no desire to work not the ones who are finding it hard looking for work.

The education system failed me and I still got a job. People can change, and if we just say 'oh you havent wanted work for x amount of time so you always have to live like this' then that's a bit shit of us as a society.

[scspkr99]

Would you want them same people working along side you or in prison?

If they made an effort to get a job and work, then I'd have no problem with them. If they refuse to work, why should I pay exorbitant taxes to support them?

There's more unemployed people than there are jobs that a small minority may not want to work is of no real consequence

If they want to work then why should we give up on them?

we shouldn't what I'm saying that is if they don't want to work it's not really a problem and isn't actually costing anyone money