Dubstep joins DnB down a dead end alley

[Littlefoot]

what is annoying is this wierd pressure on producers to NOT make something

it's funny coz it stems from the same people who go on and on about how producrers somehow "owe" them some kind of experimental yet brilliant master piece

I am in no way saying you should settle for mediocre, and im sick of the same old wobble turned backwards, but at the same time you gotta drop the pressure coz it starts to grate and is only influencing a generation of wingesteppers...

I mean take the latest Skreamizm, unbelievably huge, has some very in your face wobblas, and some of the deepest techiest shit to hit the scene ever...

[xor]

A solid sub-bass foundation and after that, pretty much anything goes.

Roughly what Kode9 said, and it's the thing that should keep dubstep from getting staid because it gives the genre freedom to venture far and wide, but still retain the blue print.

I'm sure d&b will re-invent itself at some point - it's still an exciting idea, just needs to breathe a little more than it's allowed to at present.

btw OCR, good work at policing your own thread - keep the fuckers on topic!!

[shonky]

what is annoying is this wierd pressure on producers to NOT make something

it's funny coz it stems from the same people who go on and on about how producrers somehow "owe" them some kind of experimental yet brilliant master piece

I am in no way saying you should settle for mediocre, and im sick of the same old wobble turned backwards, but at the same time you gotta drop the pressure coz it starts to grate and is only influencing a generation of wingesteppers...

I mean take the latest Skreamizm, unbelievably huge, has some very in your face wobblas, and some of the deepest techiest shit to hit the scene ever...

I don't think anyone thinks that producers owe them anything, and I certainly don't think they feel like they're under pressure if they sell the records and sell out nights. Didn't used to be the biggest Skream fan but think that he's probably been more compelled to move onto new things so as to not stagnate and he's reaping the rewards of that experimentation now and moving into territory his imitators wouldn't have conceived.

What annoys me most about these arguments is that it always comes down to the jump up stuff vs deep, techy and minimal when there's way more colours to paint with - where's the soulful, the sexy, the melancholic, the abstract, etc (I know it's there, just seems under-represented)? The fact that these debates always come down to this either/or debate seems pretty strange to me

[hosta]

I've found this thread truly interesting. Some amazing points that i can really relate to. thanks ocr for posting it

Also listening to 'Untrue' while reading this was very inspiring!

[ocr]

where's the soulful, the sexy, the melancholic, the abstract, etc (I know it's there, just seems under-represented)? The fact that these debates always come down to this either/or debate seems pretty strange to me

oh for sure, thats spot on, I think that is one reason everyone was so moved by Burial's sound, I heard TRG's "Broken heart" the other day. And would love to see that kinda sound developed more, anything else on that kinda tip out there at the moment? links anyone?

Anyway, Some other great points raised, along with my reaffirmation that interesting discussions can still happen. Amidst the endless baiting, oneupmanship, lazy uninformed posting & assorted smart ass cracks shot out from relative anonymity behind a firewall & a modem.

[citizen]

I read the thread title and thought this would be about TC's Essential Mix.

lol.

[bob crunkhouse]

yeah, but i'd leave off on the patriotism though. never attractive, whatever form it takes

How so?

Musically, England has got so much to be proud of, think it would be silly to disregard that because you dont wanna come over as some flag waving idiot.

i'll give u a reading list if u r really interested

go on then. Cant imagine what you'll show me to make me disregard our amazing heritage of music. That is what were talking about here right?

[shonky]

I couldn't really give a fuck about patriotism either. I thought the good thing about music was that it went beyond borders. And why you so proud, it's not like you made it, you just happen to live on the same patch of mud as someone that did.

Having met quite a few of my fellow countrymen in my many years, I can't say I feel any kinship with a lot of them anyway.

Acheivement by proxy is ultimately a bit shit I think

[xor]

I take personal pride in all of the Queen's achievements.

[*grand*]

you know we are on the road.. right now that drum and base walked down all those years ago.

i don't like where this road is heading. And i will do what i can.. even if it's in vain. but thats just me. Why over the last few months i have tried to bring to the attention of the forum heads some of the signs.

But atlass i think honestly its too late, well the general impression i get from those that really care.

[xor]

There is more shit in a big pig sty, than a little one.

[alexninebar]

A forum is here for discussions, whether positive or negative. If we can't do that here where can we do it!

exactly, just to reiterate :

there's a lot of music headz on here, a lot who've seen DnB rise and fall and who now enjoy the creative output within Dubstep (whatever people think "dubstep" is!)

I'm just curious to see to what extent (if any) other people see this thing mirroring the creative surge we saw in DnB coupled with the disposable pap that also overewhlemed the scene back then. I see a lot of similarities and i think its interesting.

If anyone isn't interested enough to discuss then thanx for dropping in to tell us all you're above threads like this, duly noted. Were you truly above it then we wouldnt hear from you at all as you'd have fallen over somewhere cause you cant even be bothered with being upright you're so laid back & unaffected by such paltry matters:)

I just find it interesting having been so absorbed in & protective over the drum n bass scene when i was younger and i haven't felt like that about a new emergent music form until Dubstep came along, maybe a little when UK garage emerged but we all saw what happened there.

I'd agree with that.

The only difference i feel you have is when Drum 'n' Bass reached its listener peak, coupled with a few commercial successes. Digital Media wasn't quite as powerful or prevailent as it is now.

Aside from that your'll see the same growth, saturation and fragmentation with Dubstep as you do with almost every genre of Dance Music.

[ocr]

creativity is rife within UK Bass music (i never said different within this thread, read more closely B4 posting please), life is good, it's inspired me to start making music,

(and no, not "dubstep", Im just going to see what comes out, LOVING IT, V.excited!)

Creativity was rife within Drum n Bass and then it all went wrong somehow, but i'm attempting to counterbalance this bleak sentiment by saying that the rise & fall of these genres does little else but leave us with a slew of quality releases that stood the test of time & can be played now still alongside new music.

Bob Crunkhouse wrote:

Cant imagine what you'll show me to make me disregard our amazing heritage of music. That is what were talking about here right?

Exactly, lot of people have jumped on this thread saying that it is this or that tired old debate.

Guess ultimately I just wanted to see what people thought of the dynamic of various electronic music scenes as they rise and fall & any similarities between them, and to hear the words of anyone who has nostalgia for and was emotionally involved in DnB’s heyday.

& just to say that I comfort myself with the above statement, that even those feeling protective over this music (dubstep), or who see it as being under threat (myself not included here to any significant degree) should take what they want from the “genre”, as I did with DnB, (obviously you’re going to disregard what you don’t like), and just be stoked with a big box of treats to play out LOUD (regardless of "genre"!)

& draw inspiration from your tune selection when making your own sounds. Whatever happens to the scene in the long run, it doesn't matter.

I was upset about DnB but then i was 19 and i lived for it. Which is why i get a little choked about some things burial says about those days sometimes. But I'm older now and I know its okay this time, with this music, whatever goes down.

[tremourz]

I'm so tired of these long threads about what's good and what's not. Art is subjective...go make your own music if you don't like what you are hearing. And stop whining if your aesthetic isn't popular. If you truly enjoy it then you wouldn't care how popular it was.

[ocr]

I'm so tired of these long threads about what's good and what's not. Art is subjective...go make your own music if you don't like what you are hearing. And stop whining if your aesthetic isn't popular. If you truly enjoy it then you wouldn't care how popular it was.

Give me strength..... , beautiful, Ive really enjoyed this actually.

amazing........

[shonky]

I'm so tired of these long threads about what's good and what's not. Art is subjective...go make your own music if you don't like what you are hearing. And stop whining if your aesthetic isn't popular. If you truly enjoy it then you wouldn't care how popular it was.

It is possible to just like some dubstep - ain't all Dubstep uber alles

By the way OCR, I think taking the best bits from the underground music scene from any genre makes a much better night, that's the sort of thing I try and play (albeit a bit shoddily)

[ocr]

I'm so tired of these long threads about what's good and what's not. Art is subjective...go make your own music if you don't like what you are hearing. And stop whining if your aesthetic isn't popular. If you truly enjoy it then you wouldn't care how popular it was.

Give me strength..... , beautiful, Ive really enjoyed this actually.

amazing........

Not too tired to drop in and say so after browsing thru a few posts of the discussion though. this has nothing to do with whats good and whats not, please read B4 posting or just dont bother to tell us you're tired of it, just ignore it & perhaps it'll go away?

I love what im hearing out there, I am making music, life is good, creativity is rife within UK.... (fall off chair, pissing myself, cackling with caffeine fuelled delirium & wonderment & some people's inability to read)

[ocr]

I'm so tired of these long threads about what's good and what's not. Art is subjective...go make your own music if you don't like what you are hearing. And stop whining if your aesthetic isn't popular. If you truly enjoy it then you wouldn't care how popular it was.

Give me strength..... , beautiful, Ive really enjoyed this actually.

amazing........

Not too tired to drop in and say so after browsing thru a few posts of the discussion though. this has nothing to do with whats good and whats not, please read B4 posting or just dont bother to tell us you're tired of it, just ignore it & perhaps it'll go away?

I love what im hearing out there, no-one's "whining", I am making music, life is good, creativity is rife within UK bass mmmm.... (fall off chair, pissing myself, cackling with caffeine fuelled delirium & wonderment @ some people's inability to read)

[John Locke]

I couldn't really give a fuck about patriotism either. I thought the good thing about music was that it went beyond borders. And why you so proud, it's not like you made it, you just happen to live on the same patch of mud as someone that did.

Having met quite a few of my fellow countrymen in my many years, I can't say I feel any kinship with a lot of them anyway.

Acheivement by proxy is ultimately a bit shit I think

thanks shonky, u said what i couldnt (or couldnt be arsed to).

the fact that you share the same passport as some ppl who make good music counts for absolutely zero

and no, mr crunkhouse, I wasnt talking about music at all, i was talking much, much, more generally than that.

but music patriotism is the same as any other form of patriotism: a mild form of nationalism. and nationalism is irrational. which doesnt make it any less real, but does make it kind of pointless.

but, real or otherwise its largely a negative thing in my book, cos u can only feel pride in being one thing if you dislike the idea of being something else. kind of divisive, no?

read:benedict anderson, amartya sen, umut ozkirimli, and particularly michael billig if yr interested...unfortunately u wont find anything about music in them. but there r other more important things in life too. but u know that

anyway, dont need to ruin this discussion anymore than i already have with off-topic agendas, carry on...

[overcast radio]

Wow, I'm loving this. thanks for the Bristol info...I know and love a lot of those producers esp. Skull Disco, Perv, Pinch. OK, so I guess I love Bristol.

So many points to cover. First off, people need to remember we're all talking about a niche style of underground dance music. Already there are many ways dubstep is removed from any general mainstream comments. Remember when "electronic" or the more watered-down consumable "electronica" was a word that was needed to describe this new music? I'm talking 1996. There is so much mis-information out there about what is what. You play a dubstep track for 10 people coming down the street, they'll call it "techno". Now that word is not needed because of all the cross-pollination of producers' tastes that, in the end, consist of two kinds of music...one's they feel and one's they don't. Think about it. Before "rock n' roll" came in, "country" was called "pop".

Since dance music culture revolves around the selector/DJ's, how connected they are, clubs, who goes to them, drugs, their discreet effects, their are less aspects of the music to fuck around with. There will always be a place for traditional pop ensembles i.e. rock bands with lead guitarists, singers, song structure, lyrics. But those conventions are harder to break b/c you are required to engage in said aspects of convention. With instrumental dance music of any kind, this is way more possible to evolve, pioneer, and create new forms. No precedent really. Tempo/feel is only thing that binds. Hip-hop and rap are probably the only styles that use loop-based, danceable music as scaffolding to hang a "song" on. There are exceptions to everything but I digress.

Dance music will always be the most progressive type of music because of those factors...the social factor, and the absence of convention re: no songwriting, no "band", no pat ensemble like drums, bass, guitar, no machine like A&R, major label capitol re: pressure to sell. For me, there could be no bigger waste of time than to start a rock band. The whole system is dead.

Drum and bass seemed to get into macho positing, extended virtuosity, and maximalist rhetoric. Almost like metal did. Could be a reflection on the times and the drugs. Society makes the art, so look at the world you're living in for answers. Dubstep seems to extend into a vertical plane of depth, unlike drum and bass which was horizontal/linear. It truly was a form of Baroque art. Dubstep's duality of feel (70 v. 140 bpm) is truly what makes it special. Some dnb does this too but dubstep breaks conventional subdivision of beat and oscillates between feels instantly. It has time to. It's not trying to beat the world into submission.

I love dnb still do. I still think Squarepusher and Photek are retardly gifted producers. Being a great producer means being progressive. So we move on. And so have/did they.

Someone said something about good producers aren't in the forums anyway? You are clearly wrong. Sorry.

I also was unaware that the discussion of music was old and tired. I guess music has run its course huh? No, how to make a wobble or "What's better? DSAS v1 or v4" is old.

Problem is these drag and drop guys are good enough. I'm an independent composer with plenty of credits and experience and there are days I phone it in, too. (Not many, maybe for network deadlines) But it trickles down. I've had on-air guys not feel my tunes and they're not musicians at all. Same end result: no performance. I've made the mistake of hiring composers on merit of their sounds to find it was all some great designer...that worked for Big Fish Audio and now everyone sounds like him! Fuck that! I've done some buy-out sound design and I won't anymore, trust that. If your sounds are so good that BFA, Spectras, whatever third party sample developer hires you to do a disc for 5K, get out there and get your tunes together!

Dubstep happens to have everything electro/sample-based that I love: hip-hop, acid-house, dub, bass, and sound design. And going back, we know Bristol is no fucking joke from the days of Massive Attack, Portishead, and Reprazent/Roni Size. It's sound-system culture across the board; all types of house (prog, acid, click), hip-hop (trip, blip, old school), and reggae (dub, dancehall, reggaeton) Styles are more alike than different. Look at the history between the UK and Jamaica for more answers. Look at how and more importantly why sound-system culture came about whether in Kingston or the Bronx. Same reasons and results.

I'm personally trying to fuse all my loves into a set that will transport. MAH said it best when describing Burial as "falling in love with music all over again". That comment moved me because it's fucking spot on, bold and ballsy, and heavy.

And if we all lived forever history would not repeat itself, but we don't, and it does. Everyone on this planet will be dead in 100 years and a new crop of monkeys will show up, miffed because their scene has died. Again. They'll make tunes that are so far ahead, they're timeless. That's my goal.