The SNH Football thread

[murky21]

it's not like we've been shit in that period. Champions League final. Hundreds of days on top of premier league over multiple seasons, second half the year. Paying for the stadium that has made us a permanent fixture in the top 5 richest clubs in world football. playing football that's exciting as it gets.

now, first season we spend actual money, we are in a cup final and will probably win. more to come with some big signings this summer

#karm
#InForTheLongHaul

[rockonin]

Mag's a simple yeas or no would of done It's funny how fans of clubs who haven't really won anything of significance/at all, i.e Liverpool and Arsenal fans always have to resolve to "History".

What year did Arsenal win the Champions League trophy? Oh no sorry we were the first London club to do so

(Enter generic Chelsea only have history in the last ten years, and crooked oligarch money excuse here)

[magma]

....which means fuck all to Arsenal.

Rockonin asked if an FA Cup would "redeem" the last 9 years. My point is that the last 9 years need no redemption... 9 years means a lot to clubs that only get success once in a blue moon, it doesn't mean so much if you've been reliably competitive for over a century.

You're starting to sound like a Liverpool fan in the late 90s, harping on about how they've won the most so-and-so of any English team, when recent history has been relatively sparse.

And Liverpool fans were bang on. They had lean spells for much of the 90s and 00s, but they *always* come back into the running. They're always a competitive side titles-wise. Everyone still treats a game against Liverpool as a serious challenge. The lean spells meant fuck all to Liverpool. Just like Arsenal's "lean spell" has included a Champions League final, serious league challenges and cup finals as well as building one of the best stadiums in the country to ensure the club's future competitiveness (*looks at Stamford Bridge* ), Liverpool's has included Champions League wins, FA Cup wins and almost winning the league a couple of times.

I'm not saying that Chelsea and Manchester City can never achieve or create the sort of stability that Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal have, but they're not there yet. They're Silicon Valley start ups hoping to join the IBMs and Microsofts... maybe they'll have the sticking power to graduate, but when you're in Chelsea's position of having a single super-rich benefactor, you're not exactly going to bother laying foundations for the future. When Roman gets bored, Chelsea will be back to the mid-table.

I think City's future is brighter, but still unclear. They've got the stadium and their ownership isn't in the hands of a single person. In 50 years Arsenal, Man Utd and Liverpool *will* be competing with the top clubs in England. Man City may well be. Chelsea might be.

[murky21]

rockonin, if you weren't so inflammatory in the first place, you wouldn't get these type of answers. so ignorant and smug

Muncey supports Chelsea and he's completely reasonable

[scspkr99]

Just using it as an example, calm down (calm down).


What if Chelsea's recent success is part of their legacy that fans are proud of? To dismiss it and say it doesn't count/is less valid that a longer history of success is a bit backward, regardless of what team we're talking about.

Yeah I'm fine with the example I think your argument flawed is all.

Chelsea fans should be proud of their clubs success. Irrespective of whether it was last year or 20 years ago your club is your club and how you support it is sound as long as the obvious lines aren't crossed. I generally don't think fans should be telling other fans how to support their clubs but fans antagonise each other it's a part of the same game.

You may not remember it but my first recollection of the FA cup was you beating Manchester United in 1976, if you want to sing about that at St Mary's work away, you should do it was great.

[magma]

Mag's a simple yeas or no would of done It's funny how fans of clubs who haven't really won anything of significance/at all, i.e Liverpool and Arsenal fans always have to resolve to "History".

What year did Arsenal win the Champions League trophy? Oh no sorry we were the first London club to do so

(Enter generic Chelsea only have history in the last ten years, and crooked oligarch money excuse here)

Ok, no, 9 years won't be redeemed by an FA Cup win. Arsenal would have to be lean for much longer to require any sort of redemption. Winning the FA Cup in 2014 would be as satisfying as it was in 2005.

Crooked or not, you have to admit that relying on the input of a single person is risky as fuck. If they had to fall back on gates and shirt sales to keep the club running, Chelsea would seriously struggle to keep themselves competitive.

[garethom]

Funny watching fans of big clubs all snap at each other about every minute aspect of football and how they're all so successful without winning much of anything. I feel so detached from this thread a lot of the time.

[rockonin]

rockonin, if you weren't so inflammatory in the first place, you wouldn't get these type of answers. so ignorant and smug

Muncey supports Chelsea and he's completely reasonable

It was a simple question about Arsenal fan's opinion, and it got a shrewd answer. I'm not the instigator here.

[murky21]

Birmingham have won more than Arsenal in last 9 years.
Birmingham > Arsenal.
End of

[rockonin]

Ok, no, 9 years won't be redeemed by an FA Cup win. Arsenal would have to be lean for much longer to require any sort of redemption. Winning the FA Cup in 2014 would be as satisfying as it was in 2005.

That's all i wanted to know

[garethom]

Birmingham have won more than Arsenal in last 9 years.
Birmingham > Arsenal.
End of

I can dig that.

Nah, I need to explain myself better. The arguments only ever occur amongst fans of big clubs. All the smaller clubs are there accepting their place, winning what we can when the harsh football gods allow us, but the big club fans all bitch at each other like "we own our own bigger stadium", "we've got the lowest net spend", "we've finished 3rd more times". Just makes me laugh is all.

[scspkr99]

Funny watching fans of big clubs all snap at each other about every minute aspect of football and how they're all so successful without winning much of anything. I feel so detached from this thread a lot of the time.

I've revised what I am prepared to consider success, I've had a ball following Liverpool this season and that has to be considered a success, if it isn't there's not enough success to sustain the interests of millions of fans.

[magma]

Funny watching fans of big clubs all snap at each other about every minute aspect of football and how they're all so successful without winning much of anything. I feel so detached from this thread a lot of the time.

I think this is VERY relevant to the discussion. For some reason in the last few years people, mainly non-Arsenal people, have decided that Arsenal's "success" as a club can only be measured in trophies, but does that mean that every side who's not won a trophy for 9 years needs redemption? Of course it doesn't. A club's "success" is measured in a million different ways. How do neutrals feel about them? How positively do they approach the game? How prepared are they to carry on at their current level in the future? How much pride do they create in their fans?

Southampton have been one of my favourite clubs since I learnt to sail in the Solent and despite having an extremely tough time in the '90s have built a truly respectable and lovable club. It's impossible not to have enjoyed Southampton this year. They won't win anything. Is that a lean spell? Do they need trophies to know they're making their fans proud?

Newly successful clubs place too much importance on winning titles... winning trophies is amazing, but it's not why I watch Arsenal... the trophy wins are bonuses. I watch Arsenal because the mere sight of a Red and White jersey with a cannon on the chest is enough to make me beam with pride and has been since I was four years old. I'll be made up if they beat Hull next weekend, but whatever way the result goes it won't change anything about how I feel about Arsenal. Seasons last a year. Arsenal are for life.

[murky21]

yeah true it is a bit ridiculous
i think success can be defined by more than just winning the ultimate prize (trophies) though? only so many trophies to go around so, so have to celebrate other factors too, some of which v important to actually win trophies.

even in lower league clubs, that havent won anything or got promoted, they might want to cite stuff like having a lot of good youth coming through or a lucrative new sponsorship deal as things to shout about

[murky21]

Magma mate, thats two posts on the same page with eerily similar points made completely independently

[magma]

You've got a pretty mouth, Murks.

[scspkr99]

Heh it's kinda three given that I don't think success can be measured only in terms of trophies.

[Liam92]

Celtic have won 45 league titles, better than all you lot

[wub]

Celtic have won 45 league titles, better than all you lot

I view Scottish football the same as women's football. It's nice that they're giving it a try, but if they try and play against anyone other than their own kind, it's obvious how shit it is.

[wub]

(Also Celtic are the only team to do the Quad, if I'm not mistaken? Remember that was a challenge from a Playstation Football Manager game years back)