gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[macc]

^ Jeebus, I'm retiring. How nicely put.

[nowaysj]

You have taught us well, Obi-Bob.

[mindsetAUS]

The math following is correct now. With decibels:
-6 + -6 = 0
-12 + -12 = -6
so
-6 + -12 + -12 = 0

-12 + -9 + -9 = 0
-9 + -9 = -3
so
-12 + -3 = 0

I believe thats what you wanted to say.

going deeper down, all keeping master @ 0dB
(-18 + -18 + -18 + -18 + -18 + -18 + -18 + -18) =0dB
Thats 8 tracks each -18dB and can be broken down into
[ (-18 + -18 +-18 +-18) = -6 ] + [ (-18 + -18 +-18 +-18) = -6 ] =0dB
and
{[(-18 + -18) = -12] + [(-18 + -18) = -12] + [(-18 + -18) = -12] + [(-18 + -18) = -12] } =0dB

if anyone is still confused i think its easier to do this math using decimals or fractions like below

eg.

0db = 1 (total headroom)
-6db= (1/2) = 0.5 (half ur headroom)
-9db= (3/8) = 0.375 (three eights of ur headroom)
-12db= (1/4) =0.25 (a quarter of ur headroom)
-18db = (1/8) = 0.125 (one eighth of ur headroom)

then clearly 1 = 8 X (0.125) = 8 X (-18db)
and also 1= (1/2) + (1/2) = (-6db) + (-6db)
and so on..

thats my understanding of it, if im wrong then i apologise!

[macc]

While it's appreciated to an extent, this stuff isn't helping

We're trying to simplfy the issue rather than complicate it.

I have a physics degree and a serious case of nerditude, and I have NEVER, not once, done any sort of mathematics relating to levels when building a mix.

[gormor]

@macc

if bass frequencies and kick frequencies collide, should i put the kick in the 90-190 range that im filtering out of my bass? If im completely off i will humbly take your advice on what to do
thanks in advance

edit: open to anyone to answer of course. there's many useful people in this thread

[mindsetAUS]

While it's appreciated to an extent, this stuff isn't helping

We're trying to simplfy the issue rather than complicate it.

I have a physics degree and a serious case of nerditude, and I have NEVER, not once, done any sort of mathematics relating to levels when building a mix.

i think those numbers make it easier to understand the original post cos ive been coming back to this thread for about a year trying to it figure it out and it was only yesterday that it dawned on me..

the numbers helped me gain an understanding of decibals (although not the main point of this thread), im not advocating mixing by numbers

and let me take this opportunity to thank you macc for this thread which is probably the most useful thread ive read on any forum anywhere

[royalB]

Think this has been covered in this thread. REcap - keep your levels moderate through your signal path (remember itb here). Should try to keep your mixer faders at 0db for the basis of your mix. That usually means that your sound source, a sample or synth is probably around -12db. Watch your inputs and outputs in between your fx. Some fx add a lot of gain.

just to clarify for myself, the suggestion is that the individual channel volume faders should remain at 0dB?

thanks in advance.

[macc]

just to clarify for myself, the suggestion is that the individual channel volume faders should remain at 0dB?

In an ideal world, all the sounds would be at the right level and the song would essentially mix itself

Think, a good band - they all play at the right level, no need to change anything.

So, yes. Get it right as early in the signal path as you can - at the recording/sampler/synth level.

[nowaysj]

Royal, I responded to your Q, but it went into the ether. But you got a response from the man himself, so s'all good.

[royalB]

@nowaysj
no worries. huge thanks to both of u and to all others who have contributed to the collective knowledge within this thread :$

[safeandsound]

The only problem is the second post in the thread is based on summing in phase sine waves
which is fairly rare to say the least when mixing.

This would mean fundamental components in say a kick drum and bass line would have to be at the same frequency and in phase.

Unlikely.

I would peak your kick drum/snare at -15dBFS at 24 bit resolution to be safer from reaching 0dBFS.

[macc]

This would mean fundamental components in say a kick drum and bass line would have to be at the same frequency and in phase.

Unlikely.

Which means you have headroom to spare. It's a worst case scenario, which is the best case to bear in mind when trying to avoid clipping.



P.S. They don't have to be the same frequency - instantaneous peak meters don't care about frequency. if the consituent parts of a signal mean a single sample adds up to +/- 0db (or over), then it's a clip, regardless of what happened before or after ie, irrespective of frequency (of course, some/most meters allow several consecutive samples before they register, but that's beside the point).

Anyway, I do I agree that it is unlikely - but again, it's a worst case/best example thing

[Redderious]

I have a question about listning to a mix on different speaker systems. I've asked this a few times, but i have'nt gotten a respose (i wasn't quite posting in proper threads).

Let's say i am making a track on a Crate 30W guitar amp and a subwoofer designed for sound effects in movies. Mainly explosions and other sounds that require a little rumble action. But after i finished mixing my levels i exported a WIP so i could listen to it using my ipod. The problem is that once i listened to it in my car, my sub seemed to vanish? I thought it might just be the speakers but i tried it using a few other systems and i had the same problem on 3/4 of them(not including setup in the 'studio'). The mid range bass seemed to be swallowed by my percusison as well? Which yeah, thats kind of extreme.

Brought some stuff back up to normal now, but i am really wondering how to avoid this. Do i just need some quality monitors to assure that my mix won't get messy on other systems? How do i make the mix quality more generic i guess?

[skimpi]

I have a question about listning to a mix on different speaker systems. I've asked this a few times, but i have'nt gotten a respose (i wasn't quite posting in proper threads).

Let's say i am making a track on a Crate 30W guitar amp and a subwoofer designed for sound effects in movies. Mainly explosions and other sounds that require a little rumble action. But after i finished mixing my levels i exported a WIP so i could listen to it using my ipod. The problem is that once i listened to it in my car, my sub seemed to vanish? I thought it might just be the speakers but i tried it using a few other systems and i had the same problem on 3/4 of them(not including setup in the 'studio'). The mid range bass seemed to be swallowed by my percusison as well? Which yeah, thats kind of extreme.

Brought some stuff back up to normal now, but i am really wondering how to avoid this. Do i just need some quality monitors to assure that my mix won't get messy on other systems? How do i make the mix quality more generic i guess?

try listening to other music, of similar style maybe? on your producing system, so then you know lie if one tune has bass loud enough in the car, then you need your tunes bass to be as loud as that, and other things like percussion and stuff aswell.

[Redderious]

That is a smart idea, i actually tried somethign similair with 'Falling' by Phaeleh. That tune has some massive bass in it. One thing i noticed though, he layers his sub so it is audible no matter what system it is played through. When using a subwoofer, the floors shake. When i play it in my car, i can still hear it perfectly. And when i listen to it using my earbuds(ipod) i can hear higher freqs that mimic the sub except sound alot more rough. Thing about that is i cant hear this hi-freq sound when i can here the sub layer.

I know a good sub isn't quite audible but you should be able to determine the tone of it to some extent.

[dogmancar]

That is a smart idea, i actually tried somethign similair with 'Falling' by Phaeleh. That tune has some massive bass in it. One thing i noticed though, he layers his sub so it is audible no matter what system it is played through. When using a subwoofer, the floors shake. When i play it in my car, i can still hear it perfectly. And when i listen to it using my earbuds(ipod) i can hear higher freqs that mimic the sub except sound alot more rough. Thing about that is i cant hear this hi-freq sound when i can here the sub layer.

I know a good sub isn't quite audible but you should be able to determine the tone of it to some extent.

I-pod earbuds can't reproduce low bass frequency much less sub bass. The high frequency you hear with i-pod headphones is there lousy attempt at sub bass.

[dogmancar]

That is a smart idea, i actually tried somethign similair with 'Falling' by Phaeleh. That tune has some massive bass in it. One thing i noticed though, he layers his sub so it is audible no matter what system it is played through. When using a subwoofer, the floors shake. When i play it in my car, i can still hear it perfectly. And when i listen to it using my earbuds(ipod) i can hear higher freqs that mimic the sub except sound alot more rough. Thing about that is i cant hear this hi-freq sound when i can here the sub layer.

I know a good sub isn't quite audible but you should be able to determine the tone of it to some extent.

I-pod earbuds can't reproduce low bass frequency much less sub bass. The high frequency you hear with i-pod headphones is probably just their lousy attempt at sub bass. It could also be the rattling from where the speaker came loose I had a pare of sonys that did that to me.

[Ldizzy]

to make ur bassline more audible on smaller systems/systems with bad low freq response, u'll need to give an impression of bass, to fake it.. because u wont be able to make a shitty clock radio to produce 20hz...

amongst other things which im less familiar with.. u can fake the existence of bass by adding up harmonics that will lead the listener to get an impression that there is actually bass while there isnt. = distortion... certain plugins specialize in that.. while it's still possible to help the issue with any distortion plugin and a good understanding of distortion itself..

but that is way off topic...

[Redderious]

I-pod earbuds can't reproduce low bass frequency much less sub bass. The high frequency you hear with i-pod headphones is probably just their lousy attempt at sub bass. It could also be the rattling from where the speaker came loose I had a pare of sonys that did that to me.

Why wouldn't apple just cut off the freq at, let's say, 90 hz? I feel like that would be alot smarter.

to make ur bassline more audible on smaller systems/systems with bad low freq response, u'll need to give an impression of bass, to fake it.. because u wont be able to make a shitty clock radio to produce 20hz...

amongst other things which im less familiar with.. u can fake the existence of bass by adding up harmonics that will lead the listener to get an impression that there is actually bass while there isnt. = distortion... certain plugins specialize in that.. while it's still possible to help the issue with any distortion plugin and a good understanding of distortion itself..

but that is way off topic...

How would you go about faking a sub layer using shit speakers, dizzy? and what to you mean fake the sub by distorting it? could you let me know of some of these low freq distortion plugs your'e talking about. What i really think i might try is just layering another sin wave that mimics the sub at about 90-150 hz just so it stands out a little more. Reason i dont like this though...that could easily take attention away from it. And since i have my melody in my sub, i dont want that to happen.

[macc]

Do i just need some quality monitors to assure that my mix won't get messy on other systems? How do i make the mix quality more generic i guess?

Not mixing on a 30W guitar amp would be a start

Getting decent monitoring will set you off in the right direction - you simply can't expect to produce a good mix on a guitar amp. It's probably mono, likely has very high distortion (in monitor terms) and it designed for completely another purpose.


With respect - this is all pretty off topic.... I'd suggest (politely!) that if Mr Nice Mod sees this they could split it as it doesn't reeeeeally belong in this thread. I know it kiiind of does, but it'd be nice to keep the thread from meandering too much from gain structuring if poss

Not meaning to be rude!