Do you believe in Buddhism?

[idontreallygiveashit]

Hey guys, dont want to be "that guy" but Karma is bs.

[d-T-r]

Hey guys, dont want to be "that guy" but Karma is bs.

says karma

[apmje]

I believe in karma...I don't know if it works as I find that despite doing good things, shit still happens.

Maybe I'm saving Karma points up so I don't get cancer or something.

[noam]

seriously, to anyone that genuinely believes in 'karma' as an actual thing, and not just a threat that if you act like a tnuc you might get in shit at some point (the same as christianities 'do unto others...' meme) then fuck serial killers, how do you explain the suffering of innocents?

Because all suffering and karma is collectively inter-twined and not just an individual thing.It's a misconception to believe it's just our own and no body else. Or just some body else's and not our own. Everyone's suffering is equally our own and everyone's triumph is equally our own because we literally only exist collectively and not independently.

sorry didn't have to read past this

wrong.

based on conceptual ideology and rejecting your own experience not to mention everybody's own experiences, humanity is a collective only as much as every human is wholly independant and each experience they have is perpetually unique

dont excuse away the flaws inherent in the concept of Karma with that washy bullshit

seriously, to anyone that genuinely believes in 'karma' as an actual thing, and not just a threat that if you act like a tnuc you might get in shit at some point (the same as christianities 'do unto others...' meme) then fuck serial killers, how do you explain the suffering of innocents?

innocent is your own imperfect judgment.

explain how the death of a new-born to a debilitating disease that causes pain and suffering to the point of death can be anything other than the death of an innocent

yes, innocence implies some register of morality, both bad/good but so does karma, if you accept at any point a scale to which to judge by then you have two useful concepts - one of 'innocence' and one of 'guilt'. Take it that innocence and guilt come to mean 'by the actions of the party involved they are non-/deserving of negative fortune in their life' and we have a concept we can use such that it doesn't matter whether its my own imperfect judgement or not, we just need a scale; at one end having never committed any action to deserve any negative fortune or having committed at least one. Easy.

so unless we go with th idea that karma acts on RANDOM INDIVIDUALS in response to the actions of OTHER COMPLETELY DISCONNECTED INDIVIDUALS therefore acting indiscriminately. we're left with 'well, how do YOU know that inside-out baby wasn't thinking about killing its mother whilst in the womb THE WHOLE TIME'

not good enough

karma is a metaphor, a symbol, a threat, just like the 10 commandments, its a simple guideline that if you act nicely and well in your life you should receive good fortune

in fact its barely even that, its more like if you act well and nicely in life then you should avoid the wrath of Karma

[noam]

im not saying its not useful by the way, im saying there isn't a force that doles out the future events of our lives according to how we (and in DTR's view) and hundreds of billions of past have 'behaved' in the past

there isn't a 'fate'

there isn't a 'guiding hand'

there is our actions and the very real effects of those actions, and it isn't always fair and it isn't always right but its unnecessary to postulate the existence of a binding moral force, the argument comes down to 'morality' at bottom, do you believe 'morality' to be a universal at all?

[Pedro Sánchez]

I completely agree with Noam.

[Dub_freak]

I completely agree with Noam.

[d-T-r]

i don't see it as fate or a guiding hand per say and i definitely don't see it as a threat in any shape or form. Read the earlier posts in this thread to see what i think the best definition of karma is....It's not an external force.

the notion of what gos around comes around is a largely westernized misconception of what karma is really about.its not something to be feared....it doesn't even have to be acknowledged it's self operating.

The reason there's 'misunderstanding' it seems, is because we're all are arguing our own definition of what karma is and isn't.

and i still stand by what i said. of course collectivity is determined by the sum total of all individuals. but the individuals only operate within a collective to begin with.our uniqueness is still a collective attribute. if it was objectively unique, there would be no subjectivity to arise in the first place. Buddhism aims to not identity with 'good' and 'bad' and innocent and guilty.

any flaws and limitations we see are projected by ourselves. I don't really see anything as 'wrong'. there's a flux of discord and harmony for sure but nothing is wrong. in the same way i could say that nothing is right either , it just is but that doesnt mean we don't have an influence on collective and individual experience.

morality it's self is still an aspect of karma. everything is a byproduct of what we have thought. Our morals are ,our actions demonstrated.

In terms of universality, i do believe there is a binding force (singularity). not to bring in the can of worms that is love, but i see love as just as much of a biological construct.it's catered towards sustainability and progression.

what we do today is the result of what we did yesterday. there's no two ways about it. of course we can decide to do something else today, but only within an existing set of choices around us.

if we want to speak guiding hands, then i believe we are the guiding hand. Karma isn't a threatening or Wrathful force at all. if anyone says it is, then that's their misunderstanding of it.

(sorry for the disjointed sentences, tired this morning)

will try and write something more ordered soon after i've cleaned up house mess and had a nap

[noam]

i don't see it as fate or a guiding hand per say and i definitely don't see it as a threat in any shape or form. Read the earlier posts in this thread to see what i think the best definition of karma is....It's not an external force.

the notion of what gos around comes around is a largely westernized misconception of what karma is really about.its not something to be feared....it doesn't even have to be acknowledged it's self operating.

The reason there's 'misunderstanding' it seems, is because we're all are arguing our own definition of what karma is and isn't.

and i still stand by what i said. of course collectivity is determined by the sum total of all individuals. but the individuals only operate within a collective to begin with.our uniqueness is still a collective attribute. if it was objectively unique, there would be no subjectivity to arise in the first place. Buddhism aims to not identity with 'good' and 'bad' and innocent and guilty.

any flaws and limitations we see are projected by ourselves. I don't really see anything as 'wrong'. there's a flux of discord and harmony for sure but nothing is wrong. in the same way i could say that nothing is right either , it just is but that doesnt mean we don't have an influence on collective and individual experience.

morality it's self is still an aspect of karma. everything is a byproduct of what we have thought. Our morals are ,our actions demonstrated.

In terms of universality, i do believe there is a binding force (singularity). not to bring in the can of worms that is love, but i see love as just as much of a biological construct.it's catered towards sustainability and progression.

what we do today is the result of what we did yesterday. there's no two ways about it. of course we can decide to do something else today, but only within an existing set of choices around us.

if we want to speak guiding hands, then i believe we are the guiding hand. Karma isn't a threatening or Wrathful force at all. if anyone says it is, then that's their misunderstanding of it.

(sorry for the disjointed sentences, tired this morning)

will try and write something more ordered soon after i've cleaned up house mess and had a nap

we're almost on the same page right, trouble is you're contradicting yourself, claiming you dont believe in anything being 'right or wrong' then claiming 'morality is a part of karma'

also claiming 'flaws and judgements are projected by ourselves' is tautologous i.e. circular, of course it is, it could never not be, you admitted that when you brought in subjectivity, hence why in my post i used a description of 'innocent' and 'guilty' that simply stated certain actions could be interpreted as deserving of karmic action/involvement, hence you can apply your own standards to the hypothesis

regardless, if karma isn't an external force, and it still IS that is to say it exists and is something - to not be external it must be internal right? other peoples internal karma directly affects people externally, AND indiscriminately then... which is to say it goes beyond just your mere actions affecting the outside world but karma aswell, which seems unnecessary?? if karma is merely your own actions and the actions against you then why the need for the concept at all?

i still stand by my point that the concept itself is superfluous, especially when you espouse the view of amorality - i.e. no good and bad

[noam]

the science confirms the experiences. time and space don't even really exist. the distance between me and you is like the distance between items on my desktop. we're living in a hologram. a hologram, which apparently has a designer. a video game which apparently has rules and ways to bend the rules.

just seen this

i i dont believe this makes us one entity.

[idontreallygiveashit]

I believe in ghosts. Spooky!

[d-T-r]

regardless, if karma isn't an external force, and it still IS that is to say it exists and is something - to not be external it must be internal right?

again we're back on duality again (which is where paradox,contradiction, polarization in anything arises) Internal , external, good, bad ,right wrong , guilty innocent,moral,amoral.

One only existing with the other when viewed from a dual perspective. In an objective complete state, neither exists in the previous subjective definition of it. Internal and external aren't separate, despite the words being different.same continuum of the sum-total of both [or everything].... At which point there is no total because nothing is being added or subtracted against anything else because it is in a total state of its self.

The trouble here is the words, which is where Zen comes in. Language it's self is constrained within dualism so it becomes tricky when dealing with the contradictory/dual nature of every conceptualization we 'possess' of ourselves and the universe it;s self. even the ones talking about duality are subject to the dualistic restraints words have..

other peoples internal karma directly affects people externally, AND indiscriminately then... which is to say it goes beyond just your mere actions affecting the outside world but karma aswell, which seems unnecessary?? if karma is merely your own actions and the actions against you then why the need for the concept at all?

Nothing is mere or merely and at the same time it is when seen in its total state.

coordinating our actions involves morality, yet objectively it's all an interchange of it's self and at this point there aren't any morals because there isn't any subjective vantage point to label the good and the bad.

i do also see what you're saying though and it's good that you can verbalize it in the way you can. I reckon you would get a more concisely formed answer asking a Zen master (or just looking into Zen) because its those type of vital questions and paradox's that they are used to dealing with particularly. whether or not it would 'satisfy' you i don't know.

------
from earlier in the thread

as long as we identity with the grasping and aversion of the moving mind, we produce negative emotions that are born in the gap between what is, and what we want.Actions generated from these emotions,... leave karmic traces...

karma means action. Karmic traces are the results of action which remain in the mental consciousness and influence our future. We can partially understand karmic traces if we think of them as what in the west are called tendencies in the unconscious. They are inclinations, patterns of internal and external behavior ,ingrained reactions,habitual conceptualizations . They dictate our emotional reactions to situations and our intellectual understandings as well as our characteristic emotional habits and intellectual rigidities. They create and condition every response we normally have to every element of our experience

...Any reaction to any situation, external or internal ,waking or dreaming that is rooted in grasping or aversion, leaves a trace in the mind. as karma dictates reactions, the reactions sow further seeds, which further dicates reactions and so on. This is how karma leads to more of its self.

[d-T-r]

and this for the Zen + duality stuff (and non stuff ) -

The Great Way is not Difficult by the 5th Zen Patriach

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood
the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.

*

The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,
nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things
and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other
you will never know Oneness.
Those who do not live in the single Way
fail in both activity and passivity,
assertion and denial.
To deny the reality of things
is to miss their reality;
to assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking,
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
To return to the root is to find the meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.
At the moment of inner enlightenment
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.
The changes that appear to occur in the empty world
we call real only because of our ignorance.
Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.

*

Do not remain in the dualistic state;
avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace
of this and that, of right and wrong,
the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion.
Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend,
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.

When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes.
Things are objects because of the subject;
the mind is such because of things.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world.
If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine
you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.

*

To live in the Great Way
is neither easy nor difficult,
but those with limited views
are fearful and irresolute;
the faster they hurry, the slower they go,
and clinging cannot be limited;
even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment
is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way,
and there will be neither coming nor going.

*

Obey the nature of things [your own nature],
and you will walk freely and undisturbed.
When thought is in bondage the truth is hidden,
for everything is murky and unclear,
and the burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefits can be derived
from distinctions and separations?
If you wish to move in the One Way,
do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully
is identical with true Enlightenment.
The wise man strives to no goals
but the foolish man fetters himself.
There is one Dharma, not many;
distinctions arise
from the clinging needs of the ignorant.
To seek Mind with the mind
is the greatest of all mistakes.

*

Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams or flowers in the air:
foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong:
such thoughts must finally be abolished at once.

*

If the eye never sleeps,
all dreams will naturally cease.
If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things
are as they are, of single essence.
To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be released from all entanglements.
When all things are seen equally
the timeless Self-essence is reached.
No comparisons or analogies are possible
in this causeless, relationless state.

Consider movement stationary
and the stationary in motion:
both movement and rest disappear.
When such dualities cease to exist
Oneness itself cannot exist.
To this ultimate finality
no law or description applies.

*

For the unified mind in accord with the Way
all self-centered striving ceases.
Doubts and irresolutions vanish
and life in true faith is possible.
With a single stroke we are freed from bondage;
nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no exertion of the mind's power.
Here thought, feeling, knowledge, and imagination
are of no value.
In this world of Suchness
there is neither self nor other-than-self.

*

To come directly into harmony with this reality
just simply say when doubt arises, ‘Not two.'
In this ‘not two' nothing is separate,
nothing is excluded.
No matter when or where,
enlightenment means entering this truth.
And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time or space;
in it a single thought is ten thousand years.

*

Emptiness here, Emptiness there,
but the infinite universe stands
always before your eyes.
Infinitely large and infinitely small:
no difference, for definitions have vanished.
and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being.
Don't waste time in doubts and arguments
that have nothing to do with this.

*

One thing, all things:
move among and intermingle,
without distinction.
To live in this realization
is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.
To live in this faith is the road to non-duality,
because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.

*

Words!
The Way is beyond language,
for in it there is
no yesterday
no tomorrow
no today.

[noam]

Duality and dualism exist in the same way the whole exists

[d-T-r]

Duality and dualism exist in the same way the whole exists

yeah one and the same. or two, of the same one.

[noam]

Duality and dualism exist in the same way the whole exists

yeah one and the same. or two, of the same one.

its a paradox though, thats not to say its not reality, but its the existence of both separateness and wholeness which allows Duality and Wholeness to co-exist

its not that neither exist at the expense of the other, right?

[idontreallygiveashit]

Aliens planted their eggs in my brain.

[d-T-r]

Duality and dualism exist in the same way the whole exists

yeah one and the same. or two, of the same one.

its a paradox though, thats not to say its not reality, but its the existence of both separateness and wholeness which allows Duality and Wholeness to co-exist

its not that neither exist at the expense of the other, right?

it's one of those things that's hard to word at this point because we're still looking and speaking about them as separate, yet they constitute the whole. and yet like we said, we can't define the whole without perceiving it's separate parts. nothing at the expense of anything else, but because of. nothingness seen as something and something seen as nothingness. We find the same subjects conveyed in other ancient traditions and religions/philosophies etc but story-told in more of a metaphorical sense which is where the misinterpretation always arises from.

I guess that's what Buddhism (or just the natural path of consciousness) is ultimately about too- transcending the limitations of the socially constructed mind, or social fiction known as the ego, and removing any perceived notions of separation from the self and the rest of the universe.(macro+ micro , above,below) What happens after that is any of our guess. We're at the throne of the manifested universe right now and we're still expanding in every direction across multiple dimensions. infinite pathways for the information to travel and infinite other variables of its self to encounter and inter-act with along the way.

the universe becoming the universe-er.

The 'Universe' as an 'open to suggestions' verb...or something.

but again, to ground it back to earth and give it some now relevance We'll still continue to perceive,apply meaning and act accordingly until we find either 'the' meaning behind it , or the peace of mind and appreciation that comes from just 'being' it.

[d-T-r]

Aliens planted their eggs in my brain.

sorry i just hadn't seen the picture in a while

[parson]

one day it'll all make sense.