WHO HERE THINKS WOMEN ARE EQUAL?

[Pedro Sánchez]

could the difference simply be that women are in general more pragmatic than men? That is, turning doodling into a career (ie drawing comics) on which one can live is a lot less likely than becoming an accountant. So purely from a pragmatic point of view, it's a no brainer that training to become an accountant is a better bet than trying to become a top DJ.

Might also explain why alot of pre-adult teens girls are getting tit jobs to help kickstart their career in the glamour industry after reading about the anual earnings of jordan and other talentless slobs.

[slothrop]

Being good at maths and computers doesn't exactly hurt your earning potential, though...

[kay]

Being good at maths and computers doesn't exactly hurt your earning potential, though...

Didn't include those in my geek list Although, the earning potential isn't often advertised well enough I find.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't come across that many people who work with computers and software who are geeky about computers these days. The oldschool guys are, but younger people aren't. Most of them could barely care less about the geeky aspects of computers, eg games, overclocking, building rigs. It's just a job that pays well.

Might also explain why alot of pre-adult teens girls are getting tit jobs to help kickstart their career in the glamour industry after reading about the anual earnings of jordan and other talentless slobs.

If showing off my cock would be as lucrative, I'd do it too.

[Shum]

Scuba decided to comment on the article:

I wasn't going to respond on here, but since my email to the editor has been predictably ignored I guess I have no choice. I'm not interested in discussing the article, I'll stick to explaining how I have been misrepresented. The first tweet I posted related to my view of comments on the Guardian site, which I notice has been dissected above. Comments on that site are either obvious right wing trolling (probably at least in part by the sites own mods in an attempt to stimulate more posts) or fatuous left wing moaning. There is very rarely anything of any value to be found in the comments sections, but I get drawn into it in much the same way that people slow down for a car crash. It's been mentioned above that other posts I have made on twitter show me to be a rabid right-winger. I'd like to invite all of you to take a look at my feed, nothing has been deleted since all this nonsense started, and judge for yourself where my political views lie.

Now lets take a look at the comment I flagged up as "good": "The more I think about it feminism is not so much an ideology as a minority of women attempting to assert control over other women." Obviously the word "good" could mean a number of different things when used in an instance like this. It could mean that I agree wholeheartedly with the comment when taken at face value. Or it could mean I found some aspect of the statement interesting. Or I could have said it was good because I found it amusing in some way, ironic or otherwise. Or it could have had various other possible meanings. You'll notice if you've read my feed that I didn't make any other comment on the matter after the two tweets used in the article. Looking at the tweets in isolation (i.e. without being accompanied by an article accusing me of misogyny) you'd have to say my views on the matter were ambiguous. Looking at them in the context of my feed in its entirety I'd argue that the notion that I was flagging the comment as some kind of vitally pertinent literal message is at best unlikely.

Some of you seem to think I should make some sort of apology for all this. Well if someone took something ambiguous you'd said out of context and used it to publicly call you a woman hater then I doubt you'd be too keen to bow to the pitchfork-wielding rabble banging on your door either. Some of you will say that I should know better than to be vague about such an emotive issue on a medium like twitter. I'm happy to field direct replies from the usual idiots, but you'd hope that a journalist writing for a respected media outlet would have a bit more savvy. Apparently not.

There's a couple more points I'd like to make. Firstly, I think it's important to point out that even if I did agree with the comment in question, that would hardly make me a misogynist. A large number of contributors to the debate generated by this article seem to think that criticising feminism is equivalent to attacking the entire female gender. That is no different to the argument that criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic. The relative position of women in society, let alone the dance scene is a serious issue and addressing the debate in such polarised terms debases it.

Finally, I'd just like to expand on my comment on facebook about journalists, which one person on here called "childish". My own experiences with journalists have obviously been mainly in music; one way a musician's relationship with the press changes as he (OR SHE) becomes more popular is that people want to actually talk to you, as opposed to sending you lists of questions which you are expected to write out answers for (thus doing most of the journalists work for them). I've done many face-to-face and phone interviews over the last few years and in almost every one I've had quotes attributed to me that directly contradict what I actually said, and that sometimes even contradict a wider point that I had been making over the course of the interview. Accurate transcribing takes time but is not intellectually demanding work, and the fact that most music journalists don't bother to do it properly is indicative of the quality of the vast majority writing on the subject, which seems to inspire educated people (sometimes to PhD level apparently) to research and write like GCSE students.

To those critcising my generalised view of the profession, I would suggest that you give a couple of hours of your time to someone who then ignores what you say and writes whatever comes into their head, and then do it repeatedly over a number of years, and see how frustrated you get. I've never previously bothered to respond to individual mistakes, but then this is the first time I've received a torrent of abusive emails for taking a position I didn't take.
The fact that music journalism is driven almost entirely by PRs is another symptom of this endemic adolescent laziness, although in fairness that phenomenon isn't limited to this area of the field. But the favourite trick of shoe horning a well-known name into a comment piece to attract attention, something which I suppose is a feature of the article in question (it certainly seems to have worked), is directly lifted from the kind of tabloid newspapers which I'm sure contributors to and readers of The Quietus would never admit to reading. The professional standards and quality of writing on here suggest to me that this site should accompany most of the rest of music journalism in the same direction as the News of the World.

[Mr Hyde]

^^^^^^^^^^
and I was thinking people get their pointless rant on on this forum!

zomby on has been good on twitter lately- was going on about people 'raping' his tunes the other day and arguments with people who took offence at the term..........he seems to get so angry and argumentative that I half think its all a bit of a publicity ploy

[fractal]

scuba is a misogynist - he has no girls on hotflush - but for one throwaway comment and he gets nailed by some berk.

vaccine?

[O Tumma Tum Ladin]

Scuba decided to comment on the article:

I wasn't going to respond on here, but since my email to the editor has been predictably ignored I guess I have no choice. I'm not interested in discussing the article, I'll stick to explaining how I have been misrepresented. The first tweet I posted related to my view of comments on the Guardian site, which I notice has been dissected above. Comments on that site are either obvious right wing trolling (probably at least in part by the sites own mods in an attempt to stimulate more posts) or fatuous left wing moaning. There is very rarely anything of any value to be found in the comments sections, but I get drawn into it in much the same way that people slow down for a car crash. It's been mentioned above that other posts I have made on twitter show me to be a rabid right-winger. I'd like to invite all of you to take a look at my feed, nothing has been deleted since all this nonsense started, and judge for yourself where my political views lie.

Now lets take a look at the comment I flagged up as "good": "The more I think about it feminism is not so much an ideology as a minority of women attempting to assert control over other women." Obviously the word "good" could mean a number of different things when used in an instance like this. It could mean that I agree wholeheartedly with the comment when taken at face value. Or it could mean I found some aspect of the statement interesting. Or I could have said it was good because I found it amusing in some way, ironic or otherwise. Or it could have had various other possible meanings. You'll notice if you've read my feed that I didn't make any other comment on the matter after the two tweets used in the article. Looking at the tweets in isolation (i.e. without being accompanied by an article accusing me of misogyny) you'd have to say my views on the matter were ambiguous. Looking at them in the context of my feed in its entirety I'd argue that the notion that I was flagging the comment as some kind of vitally pertinent literal message is at best unlikely.

Some of you seem to think I should make some sort of apology for all this. Well if someone took something ambiguous you'd said out of context and used it to publicly call you a woman hater then I doubt you'd be too keen to bow to the pitchfork-wielding rabble banging on your door either. Some of you will say that I should know better than to be vague about such an emotive issue on a medium like twitter. I'm happy to field direct replies from the usual idiots, but you'd hope that a journalist writing for a respected media outlet would have a bit more savvy. Apparently not.

There's a couple more points I'd like to make. Firstly, I think it's important to point out that even if I did agree with the comment in question, that would hardly make me a misogynist. A large number of contributors to the debate generated by this article seem to think that criticising feminism is equivalent to attacking the entire female gender. That is no different to the argument that criticism of Israel is inherently anti-Semitic. The relative position of women in society, let alone the dance scene is a serious issue and addressing the debate in such polarised terms debases it.

Finally, I'd just like to expand on my comment on facebook about journalists, which one person on here called "childish". My own experiences with journalists have obviously been mainly in music; one way a musician's relationship with the press changes as he (OR SHE) becomes more popular is that people want to actually talk to you, as opposed to sending you lists of questions which you are expected to write out answers for (thus doing most of the journalists work for them). I've done many face-to-face and phone interviews over the last few years and in almost every one I've had quotes attributed to me that directly contradict what I actually said, and that sometimes even contradict a wider point that I had been making over the course of the interview. Accurate transcribing takes time but is not intellectually demanding work, and the fact that most music journalists don't bother to do it properly is indicative of the quality of the vast majority writing on the subject, which seems to inspire educated people (sometimes to PhD level apparently) to research and write like GCSE students.

To those critcising my generalised view of the profession, I would suggest that you give a couple of hours of your time to someone who then ignores what you say and writes whatever comes into their head, and then do it repeatedly over a number of years, and see how frustrated you get. I've never previously bothered to respond to individual mistakes, but then this is the first time I've received a torrent of abusive emails for taking a position I didn't take.
The fact that music journalism is driven almost entirely by PRs is another symptom of this endemic adolescent laziness, although in fairness that phenomenon isn't limited to this area of the field. But the favourite trick of shoe horning a well-known name into a comment piece to attract attention, something which I suppose is a feature of the article in question (it certainly seems to have worked), is directly lifted from the kind of tabloid newspapers which I'm sure contributors to and readers of The Quietus would never admit to reading. The professional standards and quality of writing on here suggest to me that this site should accompany most of the rest of music journalism in the same direction as the News of the World.

[volcanogeorge]

Enjoyed reading this thread, magma smashed it.

Wish i knew someone who gave a shit enough to talk about this kinda stuff in real life...

[incnic]

scuba is a misogynist - he has no girls on hotflush - but for one throwaway comment and he gets nailed by some berk.

vaccine?

yeh opps
scuber

[kay]

Forgot to mention in my first post, I thought Scuba's tweet was blown somewhat out of proportion.

[LACE]

It's a patriarchal society, so at times misogyny seeps into every facet of our lives, the music scene is no different. Even if Scuba feels his tweet was taken out of context, it's still a crock of shit because it's blatant misinformation.

I kinda feel like my position on this is pretty obvious, but for those who care to indulge, let me state the obvious (or maybe the not so obvious.) Feminism is based on the belief that we all deserve equality and the opportunity to learn and explore our full humanity without pejorative or supposedly complimentary labels and categories being applied to us. Why is this so hard for people to understand. Feminists believe that women's rights are human rights, that all forms of oppression are linked, and that the status quo exists to keep us pitched against each other in endless battles over the hierarchy of suffering, rather than working to change the system. This topic has been discussed, but as stated before there are innate biological differences between men and women, but due to such overwhelming social conditioning, it's much harder to pinpoint why there are certain disparities, for the instance the lack of women in hard science careers,engineering even DJing. It's also about choice, and that the political rhetoric of choice today really only keep us focused on the individual and that our control over our lives are highly exaggerated. We obviously don't have as much choice as we're taught we do. You know women and men are all responsible for dismantling privilege wherever and in whatever way we can. Equal rights and fair treatment shouldn't be that hard of a concept to agree with ya?

[esfandyar]

It's a patriarchal society, so at times misogyny seeps into every facet of our lives, the music scene is no different. Even if Scuba feels his tweet was taken out of context, it's still a crock of shit because it's blatant misinformation.

I kinda feel like my position on this is pretty obvious, but for those who care to indulge, let me state the obvious (or maybe the not so obvious.) Feminism is based on the belief that we all deserve equality and the opportunity to learn and explore our full humanity without pejorative or supposedly complimentary labels and categories being applied to us. Why is this so hard for people to understand. Feminists believe that women's rights are human rights, that all forms of oppression are linked, and that the status quo exists to keep us pitched against each other in endless battles over the hierarchy of suffering, rather than working to change the system. This topic has been discussed, but as stated before there are innate biological differences between men and women, but due to such overwhelming social conditioning, it's much harder to pinpoint why there are certain disparities, for the instance the lack of women in hard science careers,engineering even DJing. It's also about choice, and that the political rhetoric of choice today really only keep us focused on the individual and that our control over our lives are highly exaggerated. We obviously don't have as much choice as we're taught we do. You know women and men are all responsible for dismantling privilege wherever and in whatever way we can. Equal rights and fair treatment shouldn't be that hard of a concept to agree with ya?

nailed it.

feminism is equality. period. any other way of thinking about its symbolism is, as you said, misinformation. bell hooks is my favorite author on the subject .

[cityzen]

It's a patriarchal society, so at times misogyny seeps into every facet of our lives, the music scene is no different. Even if Scuba feels his tweet was taken out of context, it's still a crock of shit because it's blatant misinformation.

I kinda feel like my position on this is pretty obvious, but for those who care to indulge, let me state the obvious (or maybe the not so obvious.) Feminism is based on the belief that we all deserve equality and the opportunity to learn and explore our full humanity without pejorative or supposedly complimentary labels and categories being applied to us. Why is this so hard for people to understand. Feminists believe that women's rights are human rights, that all forms of oppression are linked, and that the status quo exists to keep us pitched against each other in endless battles over the hierarchy of suffering, rather than working to change the system. This topic has been discussed, but as stated before there are innate biological differences between men and women, but due to such overwhelming social conditioning, it's much harder to pinpoint why there are certain disparities, for the instance the lack of women in hard science careers,engineering even DJing. It's also about choice, and that the political rhetoric of choice today really only keep us focused on the individual and that our control over our lives are highly exaggerated. We obviously don't have as much choice as we're taught we do. You know women and men are all responsible for dismantling privilege wherever and in whatever way we can. Equal rights and fair treatment shouldn't be that hard of a concept to agree with ya?

I understand all that, but do they really have to grow their armpit hair?

[TomatoAndBasil]

Great discussion people.

[bright maroon]

edited because dude laughed at me...

[incnic]

[bright maroon]

[bright maroon]

edited because revealed too much of my fragile personality...

[bright maroon]

editted because I don't want to seem needy..

[noam]

It's a patriarchal society, so at times misogyny seeps into every facet of our lives, the music scene is no different. Even if Scuba feels his tweet was taken out of context, it's still a crock of shit because it's blatant misinformation.

I kinda feel like my position on this is pretty obvious, but for those who care to indulge, let me state the obvious (or maybe the not so obvious.) Feminism is based on the belief that we all deserve equality and the opportunity to learn and explore our full humanity without pejorative or supposedly complimentary labels and categories being applied to us. Why is this so hard for people to understand. Feminists believe that women's rights are human rights, that all forms of oppression are linked, and that the status quo exists to keep us pitched against each other in endless battles over the hierarchy of suffering, rather than working to change the system. This topic has been discussed, but as stated before there are innate biological differences between men and women, but due to such overwhelming social conditioning, it's much harder to pinpoint why there are certain disparities, for the instance the lack of women in hard science careers,engineering even DJing. It's also about choice, and that the political rhetoric of choice today really only keep us focused on the individual and that our control over our lives are highly exaggerated. We obviously don't have as much choice as we're taught we do. You know women and men are all responsible for dismantling privilege wherever and in whatever way we can. Equal rights and fair treatment shouldn't be that hard of a concept to agree with ya?

so whats the difference between a feminist argument and a wholesale argument for human equality?

feminist arguments have ingrained in them a position of seniority for a supposed female inclination - those things mainly being implicitly and explicitly - the antithesis to apparent male archetypes in terms of human behaviour, societal/sociological roles and dominant concepts/ideologies in culture, politics, business etc. etc.

the rest comes SPECIFICALLY into question with regards to regulatory bodies controlling aspects of societies every day functions.

in that respect feminism is a facet of a wider argument, like the point i was making before about behaviour in clubs

LIKE; women being paid less to do the same job; women not being able to achieve as easily the same roles in the workplace as men; women being portrayed and exploited in social and media platforms as objectified beings.

there are more but i cba thinkin em up right now

but... the rest, is just simple ethics and human decency - even just politeness - that has to apply to all people, and not single out women as victims more than men, based on judgemental non-empirical assumptions about metaphysical concepts to do with human behaviour

what im saying here in short is lay out your terms, cos if you're talking about the way everyone deserves to be treated (100% inclusively) or the way women deserve to be treated by men, and by women separately,and vice versa - it needs to be made explicitly clear.