DSF SAMPLE PACK COMPETITION - 35 - WINNER

[Gusto]

You're speaking from a very totalitarian viewpoint - speaking only for myself, I give feedback in the Dubs board based on both criteria. If a tune is awesome but rough around the edges, I will still compliment it so.

If it's clinically produced disposable waffle, then I'll respond likewise.

yeah again true but, its simply my impression of the general trend. In situations where both criteria are lacking, feedback seems to be more on production values, when at that stage of an artists development its actually completely irrelevant. shocking as it may be, I hadn't used a compressor 3-4 years into producing.

Even though I kinda started this whole thing, I agree with you 100%. Most of this board is geared towards recreating sounds of their favourite producers under the guise of 'I just wanna learn what goes in to these sounds', then they put a slight spin on it but they're mostly just recreating the same song every time. However, you can't use massive in this comp and they don't know how to use a sampler so those people are not in this competition.

[Temo]

What makes a good song is purely subjective though...there is no guarantee that the person giving the feedback has the same taste as the person who has made the tune. As such, this would render subjective feedback (largely) redundant.

It's not purely subjective, the more types of music you listen to the more you see the way good music is formulated, which is by having a cohesive and strong emotion. Same goes for other forms of art, film, literature. Yet in those forms it's acceptable to differentiate between a good idea and a bad one.

'Art' and 'Good' are themselves both entirely (re: purely) subjective. To argue otherwise is setting yourself up for failure. There's no magic formula for creating art--nor perceiving it. Your definition of 'good' is shaped by your culture/worldview/experience ..which is also subjective. Just because your opinion of good art may align with the majority's doesn't mean it's the only opinion. Also, arguing that 3-5 minute songs "having a cohesive and strong emotion" are comparable to novels or feature films that bring about a myriad of emotions over their course is again, a losing argument.

If you'd like to discuss it more in depth, feel free to pm me. IMO it's not worth degrading the whole competition thread to talk philosophy.

If your understanding of music isn't developed enough to have realised that there are right and wrong choices when making tunes, then it's not worth the energy. As i said emotion is fundamental in any good music. musicians use different techniques to convey that emotion, note choices, rythem choices, sound texture choices. All aspects have to work harmoniously in that specific direction. In practice, an example of this will be you start making a tune, you write a melody which conveys whatever it conveys, then you try and write a drum part to convey the same thing. Now when these aspects are conflicting, you get a conflicting emotion. You may not be in tune with music as much as i am to understand what i'm telling you as alot of these functions work subconciously.

Subjectivity exists when different genres are concerened. So for example i wont be able to objectivly judge jazz music as I'm not familiar enough with it.

Now the way this started had nothing to do with right and wrong choices when making tunes, but as i've said, it was that not enough choices were being made. I can usually see what artists are trying to do with a particular peice of music, i can also see when theyre not developing their ideas enough to get to wherever they want.

[joegrizzly]

F blows em out the water

[Aufnahmewindwuschel]

fuck i feel sorry for b

this basslineeeee

[710]

Temo, I tried to offer you an easy way out of this that was wasn’t in the public eye. Now, I don’t post too often--but some people just need a guiding hand--whether it be a gentle pull in the right direction or a push off the deep end.


You are one of those people and I’m going to offer you both. So take my gentleness graciously and my bluntness respectfully.

Firstly, this isn’t the feedback thread. Thank you for your opinions on everyone’s entries, however valid to you they may seem. However, you need to understand that seven of these people put varying amounts of work into this competition, all with hopes of winning. Otherwise, they would’ve merely submitted their work to the feedback thread. (Or Dubs, perhaps) While there’s nothing stopping you from offering your feedback on the tunes, I’d suggest that you do it a bit more eloquently--with a slightly different tone.

Secondly, as someone not entered in the competition, you have the fortunate ability to defend your musical choices when called into question. The people you critiqued cannot without giving away their songs/identity. You should consider this when offering advice to someone who (for a time) cannot respond. This is a competition on a time limit, many songs could, and probably were left unfinished--your song seems to be a prime example of that. Now, assuming you presented your work for a bit of feedback, I’ll give you my opinion:

As Gusto said, the intro is long, and rather without direction. There is no ‘climax’ in any of the song. Whether that is production error or musicality, only you know. IMO, the “fundamental idea behind the tune” is hardly an idea at all. If it were me, I would’ve scrapped it as a failed project and moved on to the next one, taking what I’ve learned. Judging solely by the tune in your sig, you can make and produce much better music--don’t sweat it--not every song is a gem and not every idea is a good one. As far as your hang up on good music eliciting emotion.. what emotion does this song make you feel? Honestly, if it made me feel anything, it was just a bit of a headache.

Thirdly, just.. don’t argue with wub lol. I’ve lurked here long enough to realize the extent of his knowledge and his dedication to the site and its users. He is more than kind to people who don’t know when to quit--this thread is a pretty good example.

And finally, a bit of a school lesson for someone so “in tune with music”, yet so out of tune with life and, apparently, vocabulary. If you don’t understand the correct usage of big-boy words like subjective and subjectivity, don’t use them. It makes your valid points seem invalid. (The same can be said of a person’s spelling and grammar.)

Definition of SUBJECTIVE
1.

1. of, relating to, or constituting a subject:
2. obsolete : of, relating to, or characteristic of one that is a subject especially in lack of freedom of action or in submissiveness
3. being or relating to a grammatical subject; especially : nominative

2. of or relating to the essential being of that which has substance, qualities, attributes, or relations
3.

1. characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : phenomenal — compare objective 1b
2. relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states

4.

1. 1. peculiar to a particular individual : personal <subjective judgments>
   2. modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>
2. arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly caused by external stimuli <subjective sensations>
3. arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes <a subjective symptom of disease> — compare objective 1c

5. lacking in reality or substance : illusory

In this thread we have been largely using definitions 3 and 4 to describe the personal views that arise when judging art. In this sense, you cannot “objectively judge” something that is subjective. If someone asked for feedback on their tech house track and you opened it up to find that it’s all broken beat, you can objectively say that it’s no longer tech house, as one of the main components of the genre is a four on the floor rhythm. However, you cannot objectively judge the musicality of the background pads, as they are entirely unrelated to the genre itself, and quite subjective. (A caveat to this is obviously a tune in a minor key with some happy-ass major thirds in the background. But we can fix that person with a little bit of theory.) Furthermore, you can objectively say that the percussion should be louder in said tech house track, as the genre is fundamentally percussion-based, but you cannot objectively say the percussion isn't "good". Objective and subjective is a murky area in the English language that causes a lot of confusion because of the overlap, while also having some strongly different usage. Many people confuse the two. If you'd like to read up more about the distinction between them, a quick google search led me to: http://www.fingerprintidentification.ne ... rticle.pdf

What I want you to take away from this post (which I had hoped you’d garner from the first) is that there is a much bigger world out there with many different perceptions of music, art, and even emotion in general. I’ve only used a few examples in a small subset of western electronic music, and as such a connoisseur, you already know the vast differences in that subset alone. You are fortunate in that those who present their arguments are the ones who reach the truth more quickly. Of course, the other side of the sword is that those who argue the most often are also the ones blind to the truth if their version is challenged. All I can say is to keep reading, keep learning, and keep doing; your values and opinions will continue to change as you do--so maintain an open mind.

Once again, if you’d like to reach me--pm me. I won’t be checking the rest of these pages, as all I care about is the poll at the top of them.

[Aufnahmewindwuschel]

Temo, I tried to offer you an easy way out of this that was wasn’t in the public eye. Now, I don’t post too often--but some people just need a guiding hand--whether it be a gentle pull in the right direction or a push off the deep end.


You are one of those people and I’m going to offer you both. So take my gentleness graciously and my bluntness respectfully.

Firstly, this isn’t the feedback thread. Thank you for your opinions on everyone’s entries, however valid to you they may seem. However, you need to understand that seven of these people put varying amounts of work into this competition, all with hopes of winning. Otherwise, they would’ve merely submitted their work to the feedback thread. (Or Dubs, perhaps) While there’s nothing stopping you from offering your feedback on the tunes, I’d suggest that you do it a bit more eloquently--with a slightly different tone.

Secondly, as someone not entered in the competition, you have the fortunate ability to defend your musical choices when called into question. The people you critiqued cannot without giving away their songs/identity. You should consider this when offering advice to someone who (for a time) cannot respond. This is a competition on a time limit, many songs could, and probably were left unfinished--your song seems to be a prime example of that. Now, assuming you presented your work for a bit of feedback, I’ll give you my opinion:

As Gusto said, the intro is long, and rather without direction. There is no ‘climax’ in any of the song. Whether that is production error or musicality, only you know. IMO, the “fundamental idea behind the tune” is hardly an idea at all. If it were me, I would’ve scrapped it as a failed project and moved on to the next one, taking what I’ve learned. Judging solely by the tune in your sig, you can make and produce much better music--don’t sweat it--not every song is a gem and not every idea is a good one. As far as your hang up on good music eliciting emotion.. what emotion does this song make you feel? Honestly, if it made me feel anything, it was just a bit of a headache.

Thirdly, just.. don’t argue with wub lol. I’ve lurked here long enough to realize the extent of his knowledge and his dedication to the site and its users. He is more than kind to people who don’t know when to quit--this thread is a pretty good example.

And finally, a bit of a school lesson for someone so “in tune with music”, yet so out of tune with life and, apparently, vocabulary. If you don’t understand the correct usage of big-boy words like subjective and subjectivity, don’t use them. It makes your valid points seem invalid. (The same can be said of a person’s spelling and grammar.)

Definition of SUBJECTIVE
1.

1. of, relating to, or constituting a subject:
2. obsolete : of, relating to, or characteristic of one that is a subject especially in lack of freedom of action or in submissiveness
3. being or relating to a grammatical subject; especially : nominative

2. of or relating to the essential being of that which has substance, qualities, attributes, or relations
3.

1. characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind : phenomenal — compare objective 1b
2. relating to or being experience or knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states

4.

1. 1. peculiar to a particular individual : personal <subjective judgments>
   2. modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>
2. arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly caused by external stimuli <subjective sensations>
3. arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes <a subjective symptom of disease> — compare objective 1c

5. lacking in reality or substance : illusory

In this thread we have been largely using definitions 3 and 4 to describe the personal views that arise when judging art. In this sense, you cannot “objectively judge” something that is subjective. If someone asked for feedback on their tech house track and you opened it up to find that it’s all broken beat, you can objectively say that it’s no longer tech house, as one of the main components of the genre is a four on the floor rhythm. However, you cannot objectively judge the musicality of the background pads, as they are entirely unrelated to the genre itself, and quite subjective. (A caveat to this is obviously a tune in a minor key with some happy-ass major thirds in the background. But we can fix that person with a little bit of theory.) Furthermore, you can objectively say that the percussion should be louder in said tech house track, as the genre is fundamentally percussion-based, but you cannot objectively say the percussion isn't "good". Objective and subjective is a murky area in the English language that causes a lot of confusion because of the overlap, while also having some strongly different usage. Many people confuse the two. If you'd like to read up more about the distinction between them, a quick google search led me to: http://www.fingerprintidentification.ne ... rticle.pdf

What I want you to take away from this post (which I had hoped you’d garner from the first) is that there is a much bigger world out there with many different perceptions of music, art, and even emotion in general. I’ve only used a few examples in a small subset of western electronic music, and as such a connoisseur, you already know the vast differences in that subset alone. You are fortunate in that those who present their arguments are the ones who reach the truth more quickly. Of course, the other side of the sword is that those who argue the most often are also the ones blind to the truth if their version is challenged. All I can say is to keep reading, keep learning, and keep doing; your values and opinions will continue to change as you do--so maintain an open mind.


tiz mhan is tacink da truz
Once again, if you’d like to reach me--pm me. I won’t be checking the rest of these pages, as all I care about is the poll at the top of them.

[Aufnahmewindwuschel]

my bad use of the quote opportunity makes it even better

[Temo]

Seeing as you haven't led by example and pm'ed me, ill reply to you in here. If anyone doesn't want to read this post and wants it taken down, ill delete it, my view is that its interesting enough to discus here.

As you've said I can only hope you take my reply respectfully

Claiming that I need to be guided would be petit and slightly disrespectful, even if I agreed with your views or respected your music

Now what you've written until the last two paragraphs serves no function to the discussion so ill address it briefly: if anyone was uncomfortable with the tone of my feedback, it wasn't given with arrogance but with honesty, I critique my own music allot more severely than I have the tunes in the comp. Also, your implication that I don't know when to quit, simply put, is pathetic. I wouldn’t bother If this was a pursuit of being right, as it seems to be for you, judging by the amount of your post that is completely irrelevant.

What upsets me about your post is that you seem to be too concerned with specific word choices over what I’m essentially saying. I'll say it for the last time:

- music communicates emotion.
- the strength of that emotion determines the success of the song.
- the strength of that emotion is determined by the elements of a song and the combination between these elements
- these elements have an emotional charge by their nature. eg. major chords are happy, minor chords are sad.

If we accept these to be true, objectivity exists by default. If there are not enough elements the emotion can not be strong, just as if only one note of a major chord is played it cannot be happy. Another point, however, is that objectivity can only exist when you know where an artist is trying to go with their work, or what emotion they’re aiming for. Obviously you can never know for certain, but being familiar with the dubstep sound and production will usually be enough to make an accurate guess.

To avoid meaningless references to definitions I'm using the word objectivity in the sense of being able to impartially and factually say this is a good piece of music and this is a bad piece of music.

Seeing as the best you’ve come up with as a counter argument is "you cannot “objectively judge” something that is subjective" I can only hope, for the sake of intellect, you reply specifically to the points I’ve made. I also expect you to spend less time writing jokes and insults.

Don't you even see the extent to which you contradicted yourself when trying to insult my submission

not every song is a gem and not every idea is a good one.

[mitchAUS]

I went with A. I enjoyed most of the tracks and the ones that didn't quite were simply not my taste, tho even those had plenty I could appreciate within them. It always blows my mind how different the results are when you give the same samples to a bunch of producers and leave them to their work.

[virks]

2000 views and 33 votes,whats wrong here

[Electric_Head]

It's the interesting conversation that folks are flocking for, FLOCKING I TELL YOU!!!

[efence]

it wont let me vote...maybe others having same problem
i was going to vote for B

[virks]

it wont let me vote...maybe others having same problem
i was going to vote for B

Maybe you woted already?

[efence]

not unless someone logged on and voted before i noticed voting was up

[hutyluty]

Best sample pack thread EVER

[wub]

Nearly as good as that What Is Art rant we had a while back

[virks]

Vote you lazy bastards

[goa]

So who is the ninja?

[Electric_Head]

Who did F??
It's the winner as the poll has closed.
Wub is at a festival so I'm wondering if this will be updated.

[710]

Thanks for the votes, sorry about the rant lol. I'll do my best to get the next pack out asap.