Bristol man gatecrashes Remembrance parade on skateboard...

[slothrop]

haha yeah, ok, they were lied to. what i meant was, did the majority of soldiers fight believing what they had been told? or something along those lines

Do you mean "did they, in their heart of hearts, believe that they were the bad guys who were killing innocent people or did they genuinely believe that they were fighting to protect their country and their families from the evil forces that were menacing them from without and within and to reclaim for the German people that which had been stolen from them at the end of World War I"?

I'd guess it's the latter, at least insofar as anyone fights for a particularly well thought out reason.

[Perej]

What's also a bit scary is the way its almost beyond reproach in the country, I mean if I went and told someone down the street I didn't agree with Remembrance day I'd probably get beaten up.

You are a moron.

[Perej]

My father in law who fought in the war has nothing bad to say about German soldiers and only bad things to say about those that worked the camps after he was part of a group that went to one.

to be precise, the camps were mostly run by inmates under the supervision a really small number of SS (=/= wehrmacht i.e. german regular army)

and @Terpit: i guess all i'm trying to say is german soldiers enlisted for the same reason english soldiers did: patriotism

and i do find it funny that people use the argument "if there was no patriotism/nationalism, we would all be germans and live under a fascist state" when if there was no patriotism/nationalism there wouldnt be fascism in the first place and people wouldnt have to kill each other for the sole reason they were born on different sides of a border

But it wasn't the fact that we were born on 'different sides of a border'...... it was the fact that Germany was a fascist state run by a man who wanted to dominate the world and lay waste to vast numbers of the human race for his own twisted satisfaction.

[Terpit]

Was it necessarily 'well thought out'?
They were conscripted right? So they didnt decide to fight?
In the middle of the night? They would have had quite a fright?
I guess i was asking if they felt pressured into the fighting as opposed to doing it because deep down they really wanted to.

[scspkr99]

You're right though the inmates obviously weren't those to whom he referred.

[Terpit]

Nvm

[faultier]

You're right though the inmates obviously weren't those to whom he referred.

yeah, yeah, didnt imply they were run by POWs obv. just thought i'd point out the german army had nothing to do with how the camps were run

But it wasn't the fact that we were born on 'different sides of a border'...... it was the fact that Germany was a fascist state run by a man who wanted to dominate the world and lay waste to vast numbers of the human race for his own twisted satisfaction.

the argument still stands for WW1 though... but like do you genuinely think the average german soldier in 1940 was like "lets go and murder innocent people it'll please hitler" ? i'm afraid its a bit more complex than that...

[jayladders]

Rememberance day is a time to 'remember' the millions of people that died for us, completely regardless of their opinions and drives. Somewhere down the line, our grandfathers and great grandfathers felt it necessary to put their lives on the line, and they died for that. That is what rememberance day is about, it's not 'propaganda' you disrespectful fucks, it's about respecting people that sacrificed everything for hope of a better future and security for the ones they love

[Hircine]

My father in law who fought in the war has nothing bad to say about German soldiers and only bad things to say about those that worked the camps after he was part of a group that went to one.

to be precise, the camps were mostly run by inmates under the supervision a really small number of SS (=/= wehrmacht i.e. german regular army)

and @Terpit: i guess all i'm trying to say is german soldiers enlisted for the same reason english soldiers did: patriotism

and i do find it funny that people use the argument "if there was no patriotism/nationalism, we would all be germans and live under a fascist state" when if there was no patriotism/nationalism there wouldnt be fascism in the first place and people wouldnt have to kill each other for the sole reason they were born on different sides of a border

But it wasn't the fact that we were born on 'different sides of a border'...... it was the fact that Germany was a fascist state run by a man who wanted to dominate the world and lay waste to vast numbers of the human race for his own twisted satisfaction.

What Hitler was trying to achieve via war and racial segregation Britain had already achieved through militar and economic power. Come on, Britan used to control our commercial and slave trading, we had to pay them AND Portugal for our independence.

[scspkr99]

Nations go to war over all manner of issues though and not all, in fact not many, have clear cut villains as was the case with WW2. It's also difficult trying to take the moral high ground when we knew of the dangers inherent in national socialism but tolerated them as preferable to an actual socialist Germany.

There's also dangers inherent in trying to posit specific national characteristics that allow for these atrocities in Germany when doing so ignores a very specific set of circumstances that led to the rise of national socialism.

[Hircine]

And what about the colonial massacres commited by the British Empire and other Europeans countries to Asia, America and Africa? What about the wars they funded? The splitting of the emirates in the middle east? There's no such thing as a good war, there's no such thing as a villain. It all comes down to power hunger and greed.

[scspkr99]

And what about the colonial massacres commited by the British Empire and other Europeans countries to Asia, America and Africa? What about the wars they funded? The splitting of the emirates in the middle east? There's no such thing as a good war, there's no such thing as a villain. It all comes down to power hunger and greed.

Ordinarily I'd say your right though it's hard to state that at that time there was an immoral equivalence to what was happening in those camps. I may be wrong but I've not evidence for it.

[Perej]

My father in law who fought in the war has nothing bad to say about German soldiers and only bad things to say about those that worked the camps after he was part of a group that went to one.

to be precise, the camps were mostly run by inmates under the supervision a really small number of SS (=/= wehrmacht i.e. german regular army)

and @Terpit: i guess all i'm trying to say is german soldiers enlisted for the same reason english soldiers did: patriotism

and i do find it funny that people use the argument "if there was no patriotism/nationalism, we would all be germans and live under a fascist state" when if there was no patriotism/nationalism there wouldnt be fascism in the first place and people wouldnt have to kill each other for the sole reason they were born on different sides of a border

But it wasn't the fact that we were born on 'different sides of a border'...... it was the fact that Germany was a fascist state run by a man who wanted to dominate the world and lay waste to vast numbers of the human race for his own twisted satisfaction.

What Hitler was trying to achieve via war and racial segregation Britain had already achieved through militar and economic power. Come on, Britan used to control our commercial and slave trading, we had to pay them AND Portugal for our independence.

Uhhh I never said we didn't? What the fuck is up with this forum and people constantly projecting and putting words in peoples mouths? It's incredible.

We are talking about remembrance day and now your talking about Brazil's independence. I don't really care to be honest! I wasn't even talking to you in the first place pal!

The guy was talking about how we were only at war because we were separated by borders, and I said that was a foolish comment because clearly the reason we were at war with Germany because of Hitler and now you want to talk about colonialism.... err.. ok.

[Perej]

And what about the colonial massacres commited by the British Empire and other Europeans countries to Asia, America and Africa? What about the wars they funded? The splitting of the emirates in the middle east? There's no such thing as a good war, there's no such thing as a villain. It all comes down to power hunger and greed.

WHAT about them?!?! What are you trying to say? Yes they were terrible! Noone is denying that....

And??!

[Perej]

the argument still stands for WW1 though... but like do you genuinely think the average german soldier in 1940 was like "lets go and murder innocent people it'll please hitler" ? i'm afraid its a bit more complex than that...[/quote]

no shit?

edit - quoted wrong

[Terpit]

And what about the colonial massacres commited by the British Empire and other Europeans countries to Asia, America and Africa? What about the wars they funded? The splitting of the emirates in the middle east? There's no such thing as a good war, there's no such thing as a villain. It all comes down to power hunger and greed.

But what if you're fighting for god?

[Hircine]

And what about the colonial massacres commited by the British Empire and other Europeans countries to Asia, America and Africa? What about the wars they funded? The splitting of the emirates in the middle east? There's no such thing as a good war, there's no such thing as a villain. It all comes down to power hunger and greed.

Ordinarily I'd say your right though it's hard to state that at that time there was an immoral equivalence to what was happening in those camps. I may be wrong but I've not evidence for it.

Kenya, Sierra Leone and Palestine were torn appart by the British Empire. Almost 20 million people died from famine in India, but yet they were able to export millions of tons of grains to Britain and pay their taxes. The British Empire also threw hundreds of thousands of Kenyans in camps after the uprisings during the 50s. They were tortured and hanged.

My point is:
There's nothing good about war or militar imposition, it only takes away freedom from both sides and result in nothing but death and spoils. Hitler was a monster but so was every European country, every middle eastern rebel, every SS soldier and so on. It should not be celebrated, it achieved nothing but bad things. I'm sorry for everyone who had to die, but it doesn't make them innocent. I only hope that one day we will see how pointless it all was and never commit those acts again.

[dubfordessert]

some of you seem to think a state literally can't co-opt a worthy cause for propaganda. the triumphalist militarism routinely displayed by certain people supposedly in service of remembrance IS political, it is propaganda and it is disgusting. lol "disrespectful", how do you reckon consciencious objectors whobwere imprisoned or shot because they wouldnt fight might feel about a huge military display of "remembrance"? engage your brains.

[slothrop]

Ordinarily I'd say your right though it's hard to state that at that time there was an immoral equivalence to what was happening in those camps. I may be wrong but I've not evidence for it.

Although AFAICT that wasn't publicised (by either side?) during WWII itself. People didn't sign up to stop the holocaust, they signed up to defend their own country from the big bad baby-eating aggressors. It makes me a bit uncomfortable that WWII is viewed as this noble crusade to stop the Ultimate Evil when in fact most people involved only found out about the Ultimate Evil pretty near the end...

[Terpit]

some of you seem to think a state literally can't co-opt a worthy cause for propaganda. the triumphalist militarism routinely displayed by certain people supposedly in service of remembrance IS political, it is propaganda and it is disgusting. lol "disrespectful", how do you reckon consciencious objectors whobwere imprisoned or shot because they wouldnt fight might feel about a huge military display of "remembrance"? engage your brains.

Lol you feed off being dramatic