Death

[nowaysj]

G, down shift, you are missing it in your agroness. In every post in this thread it has been an undiscussable foregone conclusion that existence ends at death. I'm asking about how people are so certain when they haven't experienced death. I'm further asking, hasn't anyone ever had any type of spiritual experience that suggests a larger existence beyond our simple material existence.

I'm not in a debate with you, nor do I ever hope to be. Our posts were intertwined only by the chaos of posting in a thread at the same time. Further, I don't have any stake in the outcome of my post. My ego does not depend on bending people to my point of view, whatever that may be. My point of view is mine, I am mostly content with it in this regard. Everyone is very free to maintain their points of view.

I'm just struck by the extent of what appears to be a complete spiritual wasteland. And again, there is no value judgment in my assessment.

[magma]

G, down shift, you are missing it in your agroness. In every post in this thread it has been an undiscussable foregone conclusion that existence ends at death. I'm asking about how people are so certain when they haven't experienced death. I'm further asking, hasn't anyone ever had any type of spiritual experience that suggests a larger existence beyond our simple material existence.

My take on this is that you're quite right, I don't know anything about death; but nothingness is a baseline result I can be comfortable with. Anything more is a bonus that I'll be able to be glad about at the time, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for people to live their lives assuming death will bring anything other than nothingness, because it provides excuses for failure in the life we know we have - live now.

[Laszlo]

So, Gen, what you're saying is people who fear death are fearful of not being able to fear...
While Nev is saying he is not fearful of not being able to fear.

The way I see it, death doesn't gain from your fear and neither do you so what's the point.


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Again, people need to distinguish between death and dying painfully.

[Johnlenham]

G, down shift, you are missing it in your agroness. In every post in this thread it has been an undiscussable foregone conclusion that existence ends at death. I'm asking about how people are so certain when they haven't experienced death. I'm further asking, hasn't anyone ever had any type of spiritual experience that suggests a larger existence beyond our simple material existence.

I don't know anything about death; but nothingness is a baseline result I can be comfortable with. Anything more is a bonus that I'll be able to be glad about at the time, but there doesn't seem to be any reason for people to live their lives assuming death will bring anything other than nothingness, because it provides excuses for failure in the life we know we have - live now.

[nowaysj]

but there doesn't seem to be any reason for people to live their lives assuming death will bring anything other than nothingness, because it provides excuses for failure in the life we know we have - live now.

Agree. It is like we just jumped high on a trampoline, and we'll soon be landing, might as well do that flip while we're up here.

[Genevieve]

They might be, but they might just as well value their existence and deem it worth fighting for. You're effectively defending yourself against the theft of your existence; that doesn't imply fear any more than a willingness to fight for fairness.

It's an object?

G, down shift, you are missing it in your agroness.

It's not aggression, but bluntness. I don't get angry over things like that. But I'd rather be proactive in having discussion deteriorate into 'u r so certain gosh' when someone has made statements of certainty themselves, since that is what it appeared like. People often mistake my bluntness for anger on message boards.

In every post in this thread it has been an undiscussable foregone conclusion that existence ends at death. I'm asking about how people are so certain when they haven't experienced death. I'm further asking, hasn't anyone ever had any type of spiritual experience that suggests a larger existence beyond our simple material existence.

I'm not in a debate with you, nor do I ever hope to be. Our posts were intertwined only by the chaos of posting in a thread at the same time. Further, I don't have any stake in the outcome of my post. My ego does not depend on bending people to my point of view, whatever that may be. My point of view is mine, I am mostly content with it in this regard. Everyone is very free to maintain their points of view.

I'm just struck by the extent of what appears to be a complete spiritual wasteland. And again, there is no value judgment in my assessment.

Nah. Some of the posts maybe, but then some were responses were tailored to the idea that death may be an end. I have no opinion on what happens 'when we die', even though I've experienced some of the things you've described.

[nowaysj]

But I'd rather be proactive in having discussion deteriorate into 'u r so certain gosh' when someone has made statements of certainty themselves, since that is what it appeared like.

I wouldn't say anger, but a certain heightened vigilance was apparent.

[magma]

They might be, but they might just as well value their existence and deem it worth fighting for. You're effectively defending yourself against the theft of your existence; that doesn't imply fear any more than a willingness to fight for fairness.

It's an object?

Existence? No, it's a property of your body, which is an object. You can lose a property just as easily as an object (your innocence or happiness for example); don't be willfully obtuse, it doesn't suit you.

[Genevieve]

But I'd rather be proactive in having discussion deteriorate into 'u r so certain gosh' when someone has made statements of certainty themselves, since that is what it appeared like.

I wouldn't say anger, but a certain heightened vigilance was apparent.

I'm just vigilant to things not adding up. It's what I'm like. It wasn't heightened, it's a constant subconscious thing. Agree or disagree with what I'm saying; I'm not a bad debater. I don't often make bad points and I argue them well (though I'm not saying I'm always right). It's like a wheel is turned when my intution picks up something it feels is an inconsistency. And I can be WRONG about the inconsistency too, mind you. But yeah. When something happens or when someone says something I feel doesn't add up, I notice it.

So, Gen, what you're saying is people who fear death are fearful of not being able to fear...
While Nev is saying he is not fearful of not being able to fear.

The way I see it, death doesn't gain from your fear and neither do you so what's the point.

No, I'm just saying that someone who puts so much effort into maintaining something, will have to logically also fear losing it. Since there is no point in putting so much effort into maintaining something you don't care about either way. Assuming that death is the definitive end of the ego, and considering that people put so much time, effort and energy into maintaining their egos, it's a little bit of a logical falacy for them to say that they don't fear losing their ego either way.

[Genevieve]

They might be, but they might just as well value their existence and deem it worth fighting for. You're effectively defending yourself against the theft of your existence; that doesn't imply fear any more than a willingness to fight for fairness.

It's an object?

Existence? No, it's a property of your body, which is an object. You can lose a property just as easily as an object (your innocence or happiness for example); don't be willfully obtuse, it doesn't suit you.

No, I'm saying the gift they had the choice of either giving up and survive, or losing and possibly die is an object.

[magma]

They might be, but they might just as well value their existence and deem it worth fighting for. You're effectively defending yourself against the theft of your existence; that doesn't imply fear any more than a willingness to fight for fairness.

It's an object?

Existence? No, it's a property of your body, which is an object. You can lose a property just as easily as an object (your innocence or happiness for example); don't be willfully obtuse, it doesn't suit you.

No, I'm saying the gift they had the choice of either giving up and survive, or losing and possibly die is an object.

I'm not sure I can fight my way through this sentence. The gift of life, you mean? Yeah, you could frame it as an object, sure. I think we agree.

I think in your responses to Laszlo you might be mixing up fear with simple value. For instance, I don't "fear" losing my wallet since everything in it is replaceable, but I might well fight someone if they try to take it on the basic principle of fairness. "No, you're not going to do that. That's not cricket!"

If there is anything in this world with value enough to fight for, it's human life. It needn't imply fear of anything.

[Laszlo]

So, Gen, what you're saying is people who fear death are fearful of not being able to fear...
While Nev is saying he is not fearful of not being able to fear.

The way I see it, death doesn't gain from your fear and neither do you so what's the point.

No, I'm just saying that someone who puts so much effort into maintaining something, will have to logically also fear losing it. Since there is no point in putting so much effort into maintaining something you don't care about either way. Assuming that death is the definitive end of the ego, and considering that people put so much time, effort and energy into maintaining their egos, it's a little bit of a logical falacy for them to say that they don't fear losing their ego either way.

What about the people that spend their lives trying to reduce/get rid of ego?

+ if you truly realise that losing something is an inevitability, why would you fear that?

[Genevieve]

They might be, but they might just as well value their existence and deem it worth fighting for. You're effectively defending yourself against the theft of your existence; that doesn't imply fear any more than a willingness to fight for fairness.

It's an object?

Existence? No, it's a property of your body, which is an object. You can lose a property just as easily as an object (your innocence or happiness for example); don't be willfully obtuse, it doesn't suit you.

No, I'm saying the gift they had the choice of either giving up and survive, or losing and possibly die is an object.

I'm not sure I can fight my way through this sentence. The gift of life, you mean? Yeah, you could frame it as an object, sure. I think we agree.

I think in your responses to Laszlo you might be mixing up fear with simple value. For instance, I don't "fear" losing my wallet since everything in it is replaceable, but I might well fight someone if they try to take it on the basic principle of fairness. "No, you're not going to do that. That's not cricket!"

If there is anything in this world with value enough to fight for, it's human life. It needn't imply fear of anything.

I don't think you've read the entire post (of the part the quote was about) where I explained an example of a gift someone received from soneone important to them (that gift could be anything) and that continuously through-out their lives, they did everything they could to keep themselves from losing that gift. And then I basically posed that if that person would then say they didn't fear losing that gift, they would have to be dishonest about their feelings about it.

[Genevieve]

So, Gen, what you're saying is people who fear death are fearful of not being able to fear...
While Nev is saying he is not fearful of not being able to fear.

The way I see it, death doesn't gain from your fear and neither do you so what's the point.

No, I'm just saying that someone who puts so much effort into maintaining something, will have to logically also fear losing it. Since there is no point in putting so much effort into maintaining something you don't care about either way. Assuming that death is the definitive end of the ego, and considering that people put so much time, effort and energy into maintaining their egos, it's a little bit of a logical falacy for them to say that they don't fear losing their ego either way.

What about the people that spend their lives trying to reduce/get rid of ego?

If they wished to get rid of ego, they would kill themselves.

But then, isn't the process or will to diminish the ego an egoistical practice itself? Since it assumes that your own ego is important enough where it has to actively be shrunk?

+ if you truly realise that losing something is an inevitability, why would you fear that?

Well, I think the only conclusion you can come to is then that... since the ego is the way we experience life through, people aren't capable of TRULY realizing the end of the ego?

[magma]

It's an object?

Existence? No, it's a property of your body, which is an object. You can lose a property just as easily as an object (your innocence or happiness for example); don't be willfully obtuse, it doesn't suit you.

No, I'm saying the gift they had the choice of either giving up and survive, or losing and possibly die is an object.

I'm not sure I can fight my way through this sentence. The gift of life, you mean? Yeah, you could frame it as an object, sure. I think we agree.

I think in your responses to Laszlo you might be mixing up fear with simple value. For instance, I don't "fear" losing my wallet since everything in it is replaceable, but I might well fight someone if they try to take it on the basic principle of fairness. "No, you're not going to do that. That's not cricket!"

If there is anything in this world with value enough to fight for, it's human life. It needn't imply fear of anything.

I don't think you've read the entire post (of the part the quote was about) where I explained an example of a gift someone received from soneone important to them (that gift could be anything) and that continuously through-out their lives, they did everything they could to keep themselves from losing that gift. And then I basically posed that if that person would then say they didn't fear losing that gift, they would have to be dishonest about their feelings about it.

Oh, right, no, I don't agree with that afterall.

They value it. They think it's "worth fighting for". It's not necessarily anything to do with fear, just preference and possibly sentimentality. Like some things are worth paying money for, giving up something for or waiting a long time for, others are worth fighting for. There are a thousand reasons to fight for all sorts of things, fear's only one of them.

[dickman69]

Why cant you fear something thats inevitable

[Genevieve]

Existence? No, it's a property of your body, which is an object. You can lose a property just as easily as an object (your innocence or happiness for example); don't be willfully obtuse, it doesn't suit you.

No, I'm saying the gift they had the choice of either giving up and survive, or losing and possibly die is an object.

I'm not sure I can fight my way through this sentence. The gift of life, you mean? Yeah, you could frame it as an object, sure. I think we agree.

I think in your responses to Laszlo you might be mixing up fear with simple value. For instance, I don't "fear" losing my wallet since everything in it is replaceable, but I might well fight someone if they try to take it on the basic principle of fairness. "No, you're not going to do that. That's not cricket!"

If there is anything in this world with value enough to fight for, it's human life. It needn't imply fear of anything.

I don't think you've read the entire post (of the part the quote was about) where I explained an example of a gift someone received from soneone important to them (that gift could be anything) and that continuously through-out their lives, they did everything they could to keep themselves from losing that gift. And then I basically posed that if that person would then say they didn't fear losing that gift, they would have to be dishonest about their feelings about it.

Oh, right, no, I don't agree with that afterall.

They value it. They think it's "worth fighting for". It's not necessarily anything to do with fear, just preference and possibly sentimentality. Like some things are worth paying money for, giving up something for or waiting a long time for, others are worth fighting for. There are a thousand reasons to fight for all sorts of things, fear's only one of them.

Well, there would be a reason for that, though, wouldn't it? What your describing is value, not what determines the value and not how that value impacts the owner emotionally.

Like, there's a reason why one thing is fighting/paying for and the other isn't. Or less so than others. I think we experience a positive emotion from keeping it and a negative one from the idea of losing it. And then, wouldn't you be afraid to lose something valuable to you? A person or thing, or whatever?

[Laszlo]

So, Gen, what you're saying is people who fear death are fearful of not being able to fear...
While Nev is saying he is not fearful of not being able to fear.

The way I see it, death doesn't gain from your fear and neither do you so what's the point.

No, I'm just saying that someone who puts so much effort into maintaining something, will have to logically also fear losing it. Since there is no point in putting so much effort into maintaining something you don't care about either way. Assuming that death is the definitive end of the ego, and considering that people put so much time, effort and energy into maintaining their egos, it's a little bit of a logical falacy for them to say that they don't fear losing their ego either way.

What about the people that spend their lives trying to reduce/get rid of ego?

If they wished to get rid of ego, they would kill themselves.

Many do and they're not scared when they're doing it (at least, they look very calm when doing it)

But then, isn't the process or will to diminish the ego an egoistical practice itself? Since it assumes that your own ego is important enough where it has to actively be shrunk?

No.
Sorry, bro, i'll just have to cop out on this one. I'm not willing to get into it. My apologies.

+ if you truly realise that losing something is an inevitability, why would you fear that?

Well, I think the only conclusion you can come to is then that... since the ego is the way we experience life through, people aren't capable of TRULY realizing the end of the ego?

Obviously I don't know for sure since ego death can't be measured or externally investigated, but I romantically lean towards the idea of people being able to.

This is getting more metaphysical than i'm comfortable with. The bottom line is the op asked if I was scared of death and I voted 'no'. People can believe that or not.

[Laszlo]

Why cant you fear something thats inevitable

You can. But why would you choose to?

[magma]

Well, there would be a reason for that, though, wouldn't it? What your describing is value, not what determines the value and not how that value impacts the owner emotionally.

Why does how a value is determined come into this? An object can be ascribed value for a million reasons. Some people get sentimental over toe nail clippings.

I only really fear losing things that will have a horrible effect on my life. For instance, I fear my girlfriend's death because it would make me lonely. I don't fear MY death, because it wouldn't make me anything but dead... I do fear the pain on my way to death. But death itself? No, that's not fear. If someone tried to take it from me, my fight would come from a sense of injustice and fear of pain being inflicted on me, but not fear of death.

Like, there's a reason why one thing is fighting/paying for and the other isn't. Or less so than others.

Yes, "value"!

I think we experience a positive emotion from keeping it and a negative one from the idea of losing it. And then, wouldn't you be afraid to lose something valuable to you? A person or thing, or whatever?

Some things, I'm certainly afraid of losing; but all things? No, of course not. And Life? Not really...

I fear things that would make my life a misery. Death won't make my life a misery.