The SNH Football thread

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scspkr99
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:03 pm

hubb wrote:I'll point to the fact that both Wilshere and Barkley obviously doesn't have only one coach during their education.

The line going from the english national youth team is failingly concervative, english football as a whole is behind most of the other big football culture paradigmes.
Like you could see at the wc, where the english national team had to tell the press that they trained in all kind of different scenarios and temperatures etc to deal with playing in brazil. If you notice, not one of the other countries argues that way, but actually just expect them to do that.
They are objectively clutching at what matters in football and the appointment of your old coach doesn't point in another direction.
And the main reason imo - is that the number 10 playmaker that has been a part of almost every single great football team throughout history -has never been understood and brought about in this context. England has had young promising lads that could play that role in obviously different ways, given all the different types of players I suggested. But tradition will have it that the two way midfielders are prefered because fans and a lot of people involved (*) in england don't understand all of it and instead focus on putting in hardwork or tackling hard, despite it not yielding results in the context of this game we are talking about.
Which in turn usually destroy those unique talents that could have an impact with something other that is highly needed, than just running and hurting themselves.
It's a clear sign when you see that Wales has better prospects now just because they changed away from that way of playing and that sort of possession philosophy that brings about players like Bale, Ramsey or Allen that just don't look british on a pitch.

(*: Ironically apart from class acts like Rodgers that understand the importance of that role and brought in Coutinho, and took his education in another culture or context, who even considers Cavani to be an alternative to Suarez. Sterling even blew up when he was put in that central spot..etc)

But I don't understand it :6:
And here's the problem. Some of it you can explain but then you draw inferences that aren't justified by the arguments you present for them. Just how have the Welsh FA, who've contributed significantly less to the development of Bale and Ramsey than the English clubs they've played for got this right? Just because those players are Welsh it means nothing regarding the Welsh FA's football philosophy. I'm a fan of Allen but Rodgers chooses Henderson over him all the time and Rodgers is one of the managers you consider a class act.

I agree that England lags behind and this is in part down to the football culture at club and youth level but this isn't a factor in how Barkley plays especially under Martinez who seems a good manager. I also agree Hodgson represents conservative tendencies in the FA, he's not good enough for the job but the FA decided on the criteria and fucked themselves.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by hubb » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:53 pm

No, it's your ability to deduct what is being infered.
I have a foreign perspective that you should appreciate instead of needing it to sync up with your quite specifically english preference that you show when you just mirror the stuff said for example about Gerrard.
Gerrard has not had a remarkable career by international standards actually. He's nowhere near someone like Seedorf or even Müller who is only just comming up.
The reality is that it is a global game and that your perspective comes from one of the cultures and supports one of the clubs where the integration of those already mentioned principles have had a really hard time. When they haven't had players like Mølby, playing exactly the role I'm arguing is absolute key.
I'm a fan of Allen but Rodgers chooses Henderson over him all the time and Rodgers is one of the managers you consider a class act.
That's key. And you are not understanding it properly.
Rodgers would, if you asked him, (no press around ofcourse,) tell you, that he prefers a player type in his system like Allen, over a player like Henderson (atleast before this season where i'm sure Henderson has surprised even his manager) and would prefer a football climate where there wasn't two rhinos in the central midfield on half the teams. You do have to take account of who you're playing, but that doesn't necessarily change his preference.
Anyway.. Coutinho is just better as a playmaker than Allen, which then leaves behind a position that lends itself better to a hardworking non delicate two way going -player like Henderson. Allen was brought in as a playmaker and it's only because he's been acceptable at cm that he is still there and not just surplus.

I think Rodgers consider his philosophy somewhat compromised in the context of the prem, but not settling stubbornly is probably why he is such a good coach compared with for example Laudrup.
Last edited by hubb on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by hubb » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:58 pm

Just how have the Welsh FA, who've contributed significantly less to the development of Bale and Ramsey than the English clubs they've played for got this right?
It's simply down to how effective the principle of having possession is. Not just inside the player that has had time to work from such a position on an idea level, but also in games because they don't use all their energy in running to get the ball back, so they begin to evolve with the ball. It's like a mothers care vs a drill sergeant.

I know Giggs (and Scoles btw) is a huge Laudrup fan, maybe he's been keen on trying to convince them to go for a more ajax or la masia approach to talent. Just a thought though, I don't know how much weight Giggs has. I do know that the way the belgian fa has changed, has brought crazy results very, very quickly on some of the same basis. The key player on their team is not Hazard but actually DeBruyne who is that sort of a lazy playmaker, which only kind of argues in my favour when Kompany, Hazard and Courtois are the most notable products ofcourse.
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:14 pm

hubb wrote:No, it's your ability to deduct what is being infered.
I have a foreign perspective that you should appreciate instead of needing it to sync up with your quite specifically english preference that you show when you just mirror the stuff said for example about Gerrard.
Gerrard has not had a remarkable career by international standards actually. He's nowhere near someone like Seedorf or even Müller who is only just comming up.
The reality is that it is a global game and that your perspective comes from one of the cultures and supports one of the clubs where the integration of those already mentioned principles have had a really hard time. When they haven't had players like Mølby, playing exactly the role I'm arguing is absolute key.
Gerrard has over 100 caps that's a pretty remarkable feat by any definition. He's not reached the heights for England that he has for Liverpool and that is in part for trying to accommodate Lampard and Gerrard in the same team.

I watched Molby play I watched him play at the back and as a sweeper, I also watched him play as a central midfielder he didn't play that position. Certainly not as you are suggesting. Beardsley did who we signed in 1986. Molby only had only really established himself in the centre of midfield the season earlier.
I'm a fan of Allen but Rodgers chooses Henderson over him all the time and Rodgers is one of the managers you consider a class act.
hubb wrote: key. And you are not understanding it properly.
Rodgers would, if you asked him, (no press around ofcourse,) tell you, that he prefers a player type in his system like Allen, over a player like Henderson (atleast before this season where i'm sure Henderson has surprised even his manager) and would prefer a football climate where there wasn't two rhinos in the central midfield on half the teams. You do have to take account of who you're playing, but that doesn't necessarily change his preference.
Anyway.. Coutinho is just better as a playmaker than Allen, which then leaves behind a position that lends itself better to a hardworking non delicate two way going -player like Henderson. Allen was brought in as a playmaker and it's only because he's been acceptable at cm that he is still there and not just surplus.
Firstly Allen and Henderson played a similar number of games the season before this with Henderson winning favour towards the end of the season. We bought Coutinho the January after we signed Allen, if Allen had demonstrated his strength in that position we may not have especially when you consider how he was going to need to accommodate Sturridge. We generally don't set up play with two central midfielders, at least not in a 442. When Henderson was suspended after City Rodgers brought in Lucas just as he brought in Lucas before Allen against Soton on Sunday. You've just decided that Rodgers would prefer Allen despite him being second fiddle to Coutinho and Sterling, who's English, for the advanced midfield position and Henderson and Lucas for the middle. And you've done this to support your claim that the Welsh FA is doing the right thing despite them contributing about fuck all to the success of Bale and little more for Allen or Ramsey.
Last edited by scspkr99 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:15 pm

hubb wrote:[It's simply down to how effective the principle of having possession is. Not just inside the player that has had time to work from such a position on an idea level, but also in games because they don't use all their energy in running to get the ball back, so they begin to evolve with the ball. It's like a mothers care vs a drill sergeant.
I'm sure if I understood this I'd disagree with it.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by Forum » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:17 pm

I think Arsenal have made a mistake not trying to buy him but we'll see over the next few months
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by Muncey » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:19 pm

Europa has been a fucking nightmare to bet on today.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by xtcvsmistycold » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:22 pm

scspkr99 wrote:no midfielder in English football over the last 20 years has been much better than Gerrard.
scholes has been much better than gerrard

you support liverpool yeah?

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:26 pm

sco wrote:scholes has been much better than gerrard

you support liverpool yeah?
I do yeah and he wasn't, he was a very good player in a very good team but no he wasn't.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by rockonin » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:28 pm

sco wrote:
scspkr99 wrote:no midfielder in English football over the last 20 years has been much better than Gerrard.
:a:

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:31 pm

Again a very good player in a very good team but he wasn't much better than Gerrard. If he had have been I'm not sure Chelsea would have made the attempts to sign Gerrard they made.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by Forum » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:35 pm

Viera probably
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by hubb » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:38 pm

scspkr99 wrote:
hubb wrote:No, it's your ability to deduct what is being infered.
I have a foreign perspective that you should appreciate instead of needing it to sync up with your quite specifically english preference that you show when you just mirror the stuff said for example about Gerrard.
Gerrard has not had a remarkable career by international standards actually. He's nowhere near someone like Seedorf or even Müller who is only just comming up.
The reality is that it is a global game and that your perspective comes from one of the cultures and supports one of the clubs where the integration of those already mentioned principles have had a really hard time. When they haven't had players like Mølby, playing exactly the role I'm arguing is absolute key.
Gerrard has over 100 caps that's a pretty remarkable feat by any definition. He's not reached the heights for England that he has for Liverpool and that is in part for trying to accommodate Lampard and Gerrard in the same team.


You have your liverpool gogles on m8. He's won cl. That's it.
If you compare with any other midfielder that is as popular or wellknown from another country, they have that a couple of times and a wc or an ec. Seriously.
De Rossi, Ballack, Yaya - whoever. And no it's not because Lampard had to play aswell that is just the bit the english press has decided to explain it with and a couple of coaches tbf. They never had the chance.



I watched Molby play I watched him play at the back and as a sweeper, I also watched him play as a central midfielder he didn't play that position. Certainly not as you are suggesting. Beardsley did who we signed in 1986. Molby only had only really established himself in the centre of midfield the season earlier.

He was a club legend and highly rated with quite a high number of assists but super lazy and would never really chase the ball. I don't know what you are arguing here, then.
I'm a fan of Allen but Rodgers chooses Henderson over him all the time and Rodgers is one of the managers you consider a class act.
hubb wrote: key. And you are not understanding it properly.
Rodgers would, if you asked him, (no press around ofcourse,) tell you, that he prefers a player type in his system like Allen, over a player like Henderson (atleast before this season where i'm sure Henderson has surprised even his manager) and would prefer a football climate where there wasn't two rhinos in the central midfield on half the teams. You do have to take account of who you're playing, but that doesn't necessarily change his preference.
Anyway.. Coutinho is just better as a playmaker than Allen, which then leaves behind a position that lends itself better to a hardworking non delicate two way going -player like Henderson. Allen was brought in as a playmaker and it's only because he's been acceptable at cm that he is still there and not just surplus.
Firstly Allen and Henderson played a similar number of games the season before this with Henderson winning favour towards the end of the season. We bought Coutinho the January after we signed Allen, if Allen had demonstrated his strength in that position we may not have especially when you consider how he was going to need to accommodate Sturridge. We generally don't set up play with two central midfielders, at least not in a 442. When Henderson was suspended after City Rodgers brought in Lucas just as he brought in Lucas before Allen against Soton on Sunday. You've just decided that Rodgers would prefer Allen despite him being second fiddle to Coutinho and Sterling, who's English, for the advanced midfield position and Henderson and Lucas for the middle. And you've done this to support your claim that the Welsh FA is doing the right thing despite them contributing about fuck all to the success of Bale and little more for Allen or Ramsey.
No, not at all. I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about him as an example of a type, on a philosophical level regarding an utopia of a system- that Rodgers would ideally play. You alway have compromises but that doesn't mean someone with an understanding of football (thank you very much) can't read the intention behind the philosophy. I think that's what you can't understand in my posts -philosophy or ways of thinking.

It's the same I tried to get across with Cavani that you focused way too much on-- his potential is very close to that of an Ibrahimovic in how similar they are, the number of times they have proven that is ofcourse drastically different but that doesn't remove that potential from Cavani. The point is not he is THE best - only that he could be.
Btw the reason I said 442 and kick and rush was kind of a joke- because they have been jokes in international football for over a decade. It's what you don't do.
Last edited by hubb on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:39 pm

If you're saying probably then it's probably not much.

Weirdly the better Manchester United call would be Keane but I don't think many appreciate just how good Gerrard has been for Liverpool. He's dragged a pretty ordinary team to the Champions League he's carried a pretty ordinary Liverpool team for years. I've watched a lot of very good central midfielders at their peak including Robson, Souness, Keane Vieira and Lampard but I'm not making a claim any is much better than any other.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by Forum » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:42 pm

Well then no, there hasn't been anyone much better. More talented players sure but his influence goes beyond that
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:45 pm

So you know why I'm finding it tough to follow you
hubb wrote:No, it's your ability to deduct what is being infered.
The reality is that it is a global game and that your perspective comes from one of the cultures and supports one of the clubs where the integration of those already mentioned principles have had a really hard time. When they haven't had players like Mølby, playing exactly the role I'm arguing is absolute key.
scspkr99 wrote:I watched Molby play I watched him play at the back and as a sweeper, I also watched him play as a central midfielder he didn't play that position. Certainly not as you are suggesting. Beardsley did who we signed in 1986. Molby only had only really established himself in the centre of midfield the season earlier.
hubb wrote:He was a club legend and highly rated with quite a high number of assists but super lazy and would never really chase the ball. I don't know what you are arguing here, then.
I was arguing that he didn't play the number ten role you referred to in the first post you dolt.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:47 pm

southstar wrote:Well then no, there hasn't been anyone much better. More talented players sure but his influence goes beyond that
That's my only point really given the suggestion was Hubb thought Wilshire had demonstrated enough to be much better than him when the greatest midfielders in England over the last 20 years weren't much better than him.

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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by hubb » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:47 pm

southstar wrote:Viera probably
Or Yaya and no one else
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by hubb » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:49 pm

scspkr99 wrote:
southstar wrote:Well then no, there hasn't been anyone much better. More talented players sure but his influence goes beyond that
That's my only point really given the suggestion was Hubb thought Wilshire had demonstrated enough to be much better than him when the greatest midfielders in England over the last 20 years weren't much better than him.

I've said potential soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many times.
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scspkr99
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Re: The SNH Football thread

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:54 pm

And I think it a stretch. In any case I shall soften my earlier claim that you know fuck all. That may be harsh and a tad unfair. Instead I think you stray into hyperbole at times and at others stray from hyperbole to hyperbollix but such is the nature of internet discourse.

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