Question on bpm, keys and beatmatching

[Dubzteppa]

hey everyone, noob question coming up..

well, ive just started dj'ing a few weeks back and have a question about beatmatching,

When people choose what songs to mix do they take into account the BPM and key, for example, do people mainly mix say a 140bpm song into another 140bpm song that both have similar keys (say 7b and 8b)?

or do people often mix say a 140bpm track into a 135bpm track both of which have disimilar keys? and do people always take note of the bpm and key of the tracks, or just do it by ear?

i know im putting this in a really awkward way but im having difficulty mixing certain tracks together, i have a set of cdj's and a mixer that do not have a bpm counter and am finding it really hard to get the beats to match without clashing or sounding nasty with two tunes that have diff bpm's

any tips or advice for a noob who really wants to improve?

[string]

Dont worry about keys at the moment, get your beatmatching down first, THEN you'll have plenty of time to be creative and think about key mixing.

Fuck BMP counters, learn it by ear. You've only been mixing for a few weeks, so don't expect to be very good. Just keep on at it. Practice, practice, practice.

Also, cos dubstep is pretty much around 140 its easy to pick any tune from your box and mix it in, for me, I only worry about differenet bpms when mixing dubstep to techno to house or funky or whatever.

[wibblewobble]

first things first. the fact your mixer dont have a bpm counter is a good thing! your in the process of re-wireing your brain to be able to split hear. This takes time and patience. if your able to beatmatch but the mix is still sounding shite then theres a chance your not mixin the tracks in Sync. what i mean by that is that both tunes need to be rolling in Time together, eg...Bars and Phases ect.also need to be matched. If you concentrate on the above mixing techniques then you should be alright. for the moment though, dont concentrate on mixin in key. that will come later and by then you will have almost a 'natural' ear for it! hope this helps

[cruddy]

Yea, dubstep is easy to beatmatch because most of it is 140 bpm and has a snare on the 3rd beat. So for a really clean mix, count out 32 beats on the master track, and then start the tune in your headphones. And pretty much in most cases, if you hear more than one snare, it's not beatmatched. But it shouldn't be hard to nudge it into the right place and maybe move the pitch slider just a little bit. Also some tracks simply just do not go together well because of the kick drum pattern, and sometimes if you double drop it'll sound like shit because there is too much going on or the tracks don't compliment each other. You'll learn that later, right now just get the beatmatching down. I started spinning jungle in grade 6, so everything else came extremely easily. So good luck!

[Dubzteppa]

thanks for the help everyone, thats helped quite abit, anymore advice would be also be appretiated and has anyone got any more advice on song structure and bars?

so i should count 32 beats, then cue in the next tune? can anyone elaborate haha

[♫♪♫]

Mixing in key is something that'll come once you've become familiar with mixing your collection of tunes.

A chart can tell you that two tunes are both in the same key, but if one's 138bpm and one's 142bpm, they're gonna sound very discordant mixed together.

Learn to beatmatch and just mix mix mix your tunes...make a mental note whenever you mix two tunes together that really complement each other...then after a while you'll just have an intuitive notion of "Okay, I'm spinning tune X, so Y or Z would be great ones to bring in next."

thanks for the help everyone, thats helped quite abit, anymore advice would be also be appretiated and has anyone got any more advice on song structure and bars?

so i should count 32 beats, then cue in the next tune? can anyone elaborate haha

Again, this just comes from knowing the tunes in your collection. Not every producer follows the same rule of number of bars, some people do 8 bar drops, some 12, some 16, and it'll vary from song to song with each producer. Some tunes only have one drop at the beginning, some have up to 4. Just learn your tunes like the back of your hand.

[gettingcolder]

I mix with turntables, not cdjs, but it should be the same in principle.
Maybe what i'm going to say is too obvious and detailed, but anyway, I learned it like this:

First you must be able to count the beats in a tune: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc , like a conductor.
Then (in the headphone tune) you choose one of those beats as a reference point. It might be the 3rd beat in the bar, but it can also be the 1st, 2nd or 4th beat. Let's assume you've chosen the 3rd. You stop the headphone track with your finger somewhere at a 3rd beat, the turntable still rotating underneath. Then you redirect your attention to the tune that is playing aloud on the other deck. As soon as you hear a 3rd beat in in that tune, you release your finger from the headphone tune to let the two tracks run simultaneously. They won't do so of course because this is the very beginning of the matching process. But now you will be able to find out whether the tune in the headphones is faster or slower than the other. It takes a lot of time and patience to get an ear for this. But once you've learned it, the rest will be much easier.
Now, if the track in the headphones is faster than the other, you slow it down by moving the pitch slider. Then you start the whole procedure again, choosing the beat reference point, stopping the headphone track at that point and letting it run again at exactly the point when the master track has also arrived at that beat reference point, then adjusting the pitch slider again, and so on and so on until the two tracks are beat-matched.

Good luck to you!

[cruddy]

thanks for the help everyone, thats helped quite abit, anymore advice would be also be appretiated and has anyone got any more advice on song structure and bars?

so i should count 32 beats, then cue in the next tune? can anyone elaborate haha

Not just any 32 beats, like say 32 beats from the beginning, or the next 32 after that. But the guy below me made a good point about how some producers do their drops(mostly it's a dubstep thing). And what the other guy said about using any beat as a reference point, don't do that lol, just use the 1st beat that way it's easier to learn. Like the 32 beat thing is about like, k you know when you're listening to a track and you know when it's going to switch up, drop, or break down? That's because your brain has kind of subconsciously been counting the beats without you actually going like "1,2,3,4 1,2,3,4". But you don't always have to do it after 32 beats, but I wouldn't do it under 16(that would be silly because then it's like you're dropping it in a random spot). I'm still fairly new to spinning dubstep so it's bar structure still surprises me once in a while but the beat matching is easy to get down. If you're able to get some hardware like Torq or Serato then you'll be able to see the wavelengths on the screen to help you out, but like somebody said earlier I HIGHLY recommend learning how to do it by ear. I can't stand people who can't beatmatch properly(not somebody like you that is still learning, people who think they are good because they press sync). Just have fun with it and maybe try spinning some house because it too is all around the same bpm(128) and is easy to tell when it's off. Have fun with it, you'll learn. The way I learned back in grade 6 was my brother told me "If you don't start trying to mix, I'm not going to let you use them anymore". Lmao. Ez! Good luck!

[gettingcolder]

Yeah, cruddy is right. The 1st beat is better.
And I would also recommend practicing it with house. Best start with tracky stuff which is beat-dominated and sparsely instrumented.

[♫♪♫]

I mix with turntables, not cdjs, but it should be the same in principle.
Maybe what i'm going to say is too obvious and detailed, but anyway, I learned it like this:

First you must be able to count the beats in a tune: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc , like a conductor.
Then (in the headphone tune) you choose one of those beats as a reference point. It might be the 3rd beat in the bar, but it can also be the 1st, 2nd or 4th beat. Let's assume you've chosen the 3rd. You stop the headphone track with your finger somewhere at a 3rd beat, the turntable still rotating underneath. Then you redirect your attention to the tune that is playing aloud on the other deck. As soon as you hear a 3rd beat in in that tune, you release your finger from the headphone tune to let the two tracks run simultaneously. They won't do so of course because this is the very beginning of the matching process. But now you will be able to find out whether the tune in the headphones is faster or slower than the other. It takes a lot of time and patience to get an ear for this. But once you've learned it, the rest will be much easier.
Now, if the track in the headphones is faster than the other, you slow it down by moving the pitch slider. Then you start the whole procedure again, choosing the beat reference point, stopping the headphone track at that point and letting it run again at exactly the point when the master track has also arrived at that beat reference point, then adjusting the pitch slider again, and so on and so on until the two tracks are beat-matched.

Good luck to you!

With CDJs, a far less complex method is to set cue point at the beginning of the first discernable beat or pattern in the song, then repeatedly hit the CUE button every 4 bars while moving the pitch slider until the beats are matched. One of the huge benefits of spinning digital, and one I recommend utilizing.

[Dubzteppa]

I mix with turntables, not cdjs, but it should be the same in principle.
Maybe what i'm going to say is too obvious and detailed, but anyway, I learned it like this:

First you must be able to count the beats in a tune: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc , like a conductor.
Then (in the headphone tune) you choose one of those beats as a reference point. It might be the 3rd beat in the bar, but it can also be the 1st, 2nd or 4th beat. Let's assume you've chosen the 3rd. You stop the headphone track with your finger somewhere at a 3rd beat, the turntable still rotating underneath. Then you redirect your attention to the tune that is playing aloud on the other deck. As soon as you hear a 3rd beat in in that tune, you release your finger from the headphone tune to let the two tracks run simultaneously. They won't do so of course because this is the very beginning of the matching process. But now you will be able to find out whether the tune in the headphones is faster or slower than the other. It takes a lot of time and patience to get an ear for this. But once you've learned it, the rest will be much easier.
Now, if the track in the headphones is faster than the other, you slow it down by moving the pitch slider. Then you start the whole procedure again, choosing the beat reference point, stopping the headphone track at that point and letting it run again at exactly the point when the master track has also arrived at that beat reference point, then adjusting the pitch slider again, and so on and so on until the two tracks are beat-matched.

Good luck to you!

With CDJs, a far less complex method is to set cue point at the beginning of the first discernable beat or pattern in the song, then repeatedly hit the CUE button every 4 bars while moving the pitch slider until the beats are matched. One of the huge benefits of spinning digital, and one I recommend utilizing.

thankyou everyone!! i never knew a forum would be able to help this much haha, really good advice here ive started improving already thanks to all your posts, and can get tracks matched much quicker and better than i could before.. man i love Djing!!

keep em coming

[gwa]

I mix with turntables, not cdjs, but it should be the same in principle.
Maybe what i'm going to say is too obvious and detailed, but anyway, I learned it like this:

First you must be able to count the beats in a tune: 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc , like a conductor.
Then (in the headphone tune) you choose one of those beats as a reference point. It might be the 3rd beat in the bar, but it can also be the 1st, 2nd or 4th beat. Let's assume you've chosen the 3rd. You stop the headphone track with your finger somewhere at a 3rd beat, the turntable still rotating underneath. Then you redirect your attention to the tune that is playing aloud on the other deck. As soon as you hear a 3rd beat in in that tune, you release your finger from the headphone tune to let the two tracks run simultaneously. They won't do so of course because this is the very beginning of the matching process. But now you will be able to find out whether the tune in the headphones is faster or slower than the other. It takes a lot of time and patience to get an ear for this. But once you've learned it, the rest will be much easier.
Now, if the track in the headphones is faster than the other, you slow it down by moving the pitch slider. Then you start the whole procedure again, choosing the beat reference point, stopping the headphone track at that point and letting it run again at exactly the point when the master track has also arrived at that beat reference point, then adjusting the pitch slider again, and so on and so on until the two tracks are beat-matched.

Good luck to you!

With CDJs, a far less complex method is to set cue point at the beginning of the first discernable beat or pattern in the song, then repeatedly hit the CUE button every 4 bars while moving the pitch slider until the beats are matched. One of the huge benefits of spinning digital, and one I recommend utilizing.

or you can just read the bpm counter (only if it's pioneer do they get it spot on.) a huge benefit of spinning digital.
please note that on paper it seems harder than it is. If you have a general understanding of electronic mus

[morro_e]

Learn to beatmatch and just mix mix mix your tunes...make a mental note whenever you mix two tunes together that really complement each other...then after a while you'll just have an intuitive notion of "Okay, I'm spinning tune X, so Y or Z would be great ones to bring in next

thats it

[dirt]

It is weird that this post has come up as I was gonna start one similar and request it as a sticky. My thoughts are slightly different to the bmp topic here but along the same lines. Until about 3/4 years ago i was mainly spinning hip hop, which meant scratching, cutting and dropping without too many long mixes. Since expanding the dub collection over time I'm in need of help with that intermediate phase of mixing... the Youngsta style long blend and subtle mix technique that suits (certain) dubstep really well.

Some thoughts/questions;
What is the best thing to do with the EQs when bringing tunes together?
What is the best sort of mixer for dubstep? (I'm struggling using a vestax PMC06 battle mixer that is low on EQs)
Is the pitch left on green for the 140 consitency, or shifted up for DJ out to get more of a lively vibe going? (this is a hip hop thing only, maybe; set the pitch about +2)
Decks best set up battle style (portrait) or mix style (landscape)?
Best time to introduce the next tune? After the break or to blend in so it drops as the other breaks?
How to mix with tunes like Burial/(cerytain) Synkro/(certain) Digital Mystikz & Coki that have odd beat patterns and timings that change over the course of the record.
Best stylus for dubstep? I'm using scratch Concord stylus atm...

It would be good to have a forum section for mixing tips & tricks from beginners up to pro level. There are too many 'DJs' out there who are utter shit and get paid for it! Lets improve those standards across the world people!

Cheers

[wibblewobble]

Since expanding the dub collection

you mean Dub as in Reggea? or Dubstep?

[gwa]

Some thoughts/questions;
What is the best thing to do with the EQs when bringing tunes together?
What is the best sort of mixer for dubstep? (I'm struggling using a vestax PMC06 battle mixer that is low on EQs)
Is the pitch left on green for the 140 consitency, or shifted up for DJ out to get more of a lively vibe going? (this is a hip hop thing only, maybe; set the pitch about +2)
Decks best set up battle style (portrait) or mix style (landscape)?
Best time to introduce the next tune? After the break or to blend in so it drops as the other breaks?
How to mix with tunes like Burial/(cerytain) Synkro/(certain) Digital Mystikz & Coki that have odd beat patterns and timings that change over the course of the record.
Best stylus for dubstep? I'm using scratch Concord stylus atm...

It would be good to have a forum section for mixing tips & tricks from beginners up to pro level. There are too many 'DJs' out there who are utter shit and get paid for it! Lets improve those standards across the world people!

Cheers

EQ's - Do what you find is nice, obviously kill the bass a little on the incoming track, otherwise it can sound overkill, you'll find once you know how to beatmatch, it's a case of what sounds good. Practise.

Pitch - Down to personal preference, I know DJ's that like to play it faster than others, I like to keep it around 138, makes it easier to drop some slower stuff (Garage, Funky)

Bringing in tunes - If you listen to the track enough, you'll know it like the back of your hand. That too is a case of personal preference, getting a breakdown and an intro to drop at the same time is a double drop, popular mixing technique.

Different drum patterns - A good thing about Dubstep is you get various different paterns. You have the simple, snare - clap, garagey, housey, breakbeat, 2 Step. Some shit goes together, some doesn't. It's all mixable so it's down to what is sounding good. You just have to practise your beatmatching to get them to line up, It's a lot trickier for someone starting out to try and mix 2Step and a garage style beat. Try house and other 4x4 patterns if you're still starting out. You'll find it's easier to see it going out of time, once that is nailed try something harder and keep practising. You will eventually be able to split your hearing and hear the start of both songs beats, you will know when they are matched and you will know when they are not.

Stylus - I'm using Ortofon Nightclubs, although if you plan on using DVS (Serato, Traktor etc) I recommend getting Shure Whitelabels as they are pretty much made for DVS.

Hope that helps.

[dirt]

Since expanding the dub collection

you mean Dub as in Reggea? or Dubstep?

Yeah sry, meant dubstep...

[morro_e]

thats where you have failed

[Dubzteppa]

One more question, if two tracks are both 140 bpm, and i bring one tune in on the beat (i always go for the snare, is that ok?) i wont need to adjust the pitch control at all, will i? they should just be in time and stay in time, right?

someone please fill me in on this!!

[gwa]

After a while decks can become a little out of touch on the pitch. One of my technics is +1 on pitch. So whatever I play it'll be always faster on that deck even if at sr position. Cdjs shouldn't do that I think.