My paradox

[snypadub]

my girlfriend and I are very much in love! We both differ in several ways but there is one big, universal difference: I am, entirely, Atheist (I denounce the holy spirit and reject god). She, on the other hand, is entirely faithful to the "word" of jesus Christ.
She insists that she loves me beyond anything I can ever imagine, so i presented her with an idea that spiralled towards the paradox I am about to mention.

I said to her: you love me on this earthly experience, for me; that is all you get, there is no eternity beyond. However, your earthly experience is only a tiny percentage of your eternal existence (based on her Biblical beliefs). As she accepts god and prays for forgiveness, it is wise to assume that (in her eyes) she will be granted eternity in heaven. Heaven is the paradox! If she loves me and feels her life is joyfull and indeed, as she has said, her existence is joyfull with me in it, yet I won't spend eternity in heaven with her as I reject the holy spirit, thus commiting the only unforgiveable sin. If heaven is meant to be perfect, god grants your soul with everything it longs for and desires, yet I won't be there to complete her heaven. How can heaven, and beyond that; God, even begin to exist??

This paradox alone is not what I base my Atheism on, far from it! But I feel it makes a strong argument in support of my side of the argument. I'm posting this for several reasons:

I enjoy writing about these things.

I want to hear as many varying oppinions on the matter as I can.

I would like to try and puzzle out this paradox, with the input and wisdom of others.

I'm obsessed with wierd shit like this and until I have rectified the situation I can't rest.

With the last point I know I am being slightly contradictory in the sense that; I am attempting to solve a paradox and, as we all know, a paradox (by its very nature) is unsolveable. The trouble is I always want to try and solve the bloody things and this leads to this kind of obsessive ranting.
On a side note, perhaps studying English literature really isn't the subject for me (Literature is full to the brim with paradoxes)

I would be really interested to see some decent responses to this.

cnt w8 4 da real mac n chs

[magma]

If you don't believe then there's no major issue... if she's committed to you for the rest of her "earthly" existance then that's all that matters in practicality, isn't it?

Of course, if she's wrong, she won't ever find out she was wrong... she'll be too busy being dead. If she's right, then Heaven is *way better* than spending eternity with the person you loved on Earth.... earthly love and experience sort of pale in comparison.

I think people get too worked up about how others interpret the world/existance - if, in your eyes, she's a good person and you make a good couple, then perhaps a difference in religious opinion is pretty minor. In fact, it might be exactly what keeps you talking to each other over the coming years/decades.

[snypadub]

If you don't believe then there's no major issue... if she's committed to you for the rest of her "earthly" existance then that's all that matters in practicality, isn't it?

Of course, if she's wrong, she won't ever find out she was wrong... she'll be too busy being dead. If she's right, then Heaven is *way better* than spending eternity with the person you loved on Earth.... earthly love and experience sort of pale in comparison.

I think people get too worked up about how others interpret the world/existance - if, in your eyes, she's a good person and you make a good couple, then perhaps a difference in religious opinion is pretty minor. In fact, it might be exactly what keeps you talking to each other over the coming years/decades.

I do agree with this, to an extent, but I want to be as close to her as possible.
The reason this is important is because, in order to attain that level of closeness, we need to understand eachother completely.
So, in presenting this paradox to her and discussing my views with her, I hope to give her greater insight into my person. I also hope for and expect the same from her. The point is, she believes that, in order for her heaven to be perfect, I would have to be there. But, as I have demonstrated, that will not be the case. How will this affect her views? For me this paradox exposes God as a phallacy and a false representation of the reality of the universe. What are the implications of this?

[DRTY]

This is one deep ass thread! I will read properly and give me views in a bit!

[AntlionUK]

see for me the problem would be that i couldn't be with someone with strong religious views. I'm very anti religious and see people that need religion in their life to be weak. i'm not looking to offend anyone this is just my opinion on religion.

[adamjames]

I'm not sure on how christians exactly view heaven.
This heaven could either be a shared community based place where everyone is joining the exact same place in space and time. However, what if heaven was in fact a gift given from god that was very personal. For instance, if god believed you deserved to go to 'heaven', you would be in a place that you would consider heaven, everything would please you and be perfect and in your girlfriend's heaven, you would be there.

Just a theory, I'm a full on atheist myself.

[magma]

If you don't believe then there's no major issue... if she's committed to you for the rest of her "earthly" existance then that's all that matters in practicality, isn't it?

Of course, if she's wrong, she won't ever find out she was wrong... she'll be too busy being dead. If she's right, then Heaven is *way better* than spending eternity with the person you loved on Earth.... earthly love and experience sort of pale in comparison.

I think people get too worked up about how others interpret the world/existance - if, in your eyes, she's a good person and you make a good couple, then perhaps a difference in religious opinion is pretty minor. In fact, it might be exactly what keeps you talking to each other over the coming years/decades.

I do agree with this, to an extent, but I want to be as close to her as possible.
The reason this is important is because, in order to attain that level of closeness, we need to understand eachother completely.
So, in presenting this paradox to her and discussing my views with her, I hope to give her greater insight into my person. I also hope for and expect the same from her. The point is, she believes that, in order for her heaven to be perfect, I would have to be there. But, as I have demonstrated, that will not be the case. How will this affect her views? For me this paradox exposes God as a phallacy and a false representation of the reality of the universe. What are the implications of this?

There's never any harm in learning more about each other and having debates about things like this... I think you're approaching it in the right way.

I think her views on Heaven might be a bit "simplistic" if she thinks that spending it with another human is a make or break... for a lot that believe, Heaven transcends even any comparison with happiness you could have on Earth... I'm not sure it's supposed to be like you wake up and everything's the same but "better". What does she think's going to happen to the person who dies first? Are they to have an "imperfect" heaven until the partner arrives or should they be perfectly happy either way - afterall, it's heaven. I dunno, I'm an atheist, but it seems there's enough "doubt" even for a believer to admit they're not sure what's going to happen... does she really have a "picture" of what Heaven is in her head?

If you dig her then you dig her, there are obviously far more important things about her than her faith... keep the conversation going, stay respectful of each other's views and you'll be great. I mean, she sounds like she likes you a LOT and you her, which can't be a bad thing.

[2manynoobs]

can't you just say to her that if you live a good life you'll end up in heaven anyways. Because God is all about forgiveness no?
Ask her to pray for your soul and it'll all be just fine. You'll love each other for ever in heaven, day in day out for the rest of your heavenly eternal lives.

?

[Project_B]

Have you had sex? Does she go to chruch on sundays? Does she prey every night?

Sorry for intrusive questions but there are alot of what I call "part time christians" (or any religion) out there who dont actually really understand what they are doing, and dont commit to it. But they do so kinda half assed because theyve been taught its the right thing.



Heres some more ammo for you - A human doesn't have to be taught how to eat, drink and breathe but it needs to be taught religion.


Allthought saying this. The way forward in situations like these is not to conquor one anyother. dont overpower each other with fact figures and passages from the bible. Try to understand whats going on with each other. I myself am a compelte atheist to and through and I find religous people and their reasoning absolutly fascinating. Interesting to learn of the insecuritys that people have, that often get exposed through religion.

[snypadub]

If you don't believe then there's no major issue... if she's committed to you for the rest of her "earthly" existance then that's all that matters in practicality, isn't it?

Of course, if she's wrong, she won't ever find out she was wrong... she'll be too busy being dead. If she's right, then Heaven is *way better* than spending eternity with the person you loved on Earth.... earthly love and experience sort of pale in comparison.

I think people get too worked up about how others interpret the world/existance - if, in your eyes, she's a good person and you make a good couple, then perhaps a difference in religious opinion is pretty minor. In fact, it might be exactly what keeps you talking to each other over the coming years/decades.

I do agree with this, to an extent, but I want to be as close to her as possible.
The reason this is important is because, in order to attain that level of closeness, we need to understand eachother completely.
So, in presenting this paradox to her and discussing my views with her, I hope to give her greater insight into my person. I also hope for and expect the same from her. The point is, she believes that, in order for her heaven to be perfect, I would have to be there. But, as I have demonstrated, that will not be the case. How will this affect her views? For me this paradox exposes God as a phallacy and a false representation of the reality of the universe. What are the implications of this?

There's never any harm in learning more about each other and having debates about things like this... I think you're approaching it in the right way.

I think her views on Heaven might be a bit "simplistic" if she thinks that spending it with another human is a make or break... for a lot that believe, Heaven transcends even any comparison with happiness you could have on Earth... I'm not sure it's supposed to be like you wake up and everything's the same but "better". What does she think's going to happen to the person who dies first? Are they to have an "imperfect" heaven until the partner arrives or should they be perfectly happy either way - afterall, it's heaven. I dunno, I'm an atheist, but it seems there's enough "doubt" even for a believer to admit they're not sure what's going to happen... does she really have a "picture" of what Heaven is in her head?

If you dig her then you dig her, there are obviously far more important things about her than her faith... keep the conversation going, stay respectful of each other's views and you'll be great. I mean, she sounds like she likes you a LOT and you her, which can't be a bad thing.

Fantastic reply, don't really know what her interpretation of heaven is as she isn't certain herself. But, in her heaven (which she bases on the bible) there is no room for me. I understand that the transcendant nature of Heaven implies a level of joy unparralelled in the human domain, but still find this issue with the Christian God in which she bases her faith.
I can, as a real atheist accept that there is a possibility of God, we don't know and can never prove it, but this God is not the God of the Bible and that is where my issues lie.

I have a major problem with all (at least all that I am aware of) monotheistic relligions. I feel very strongly and confidently that, without these relligions the world would be a better place. There would be no acts of devestating violence commited in the name of "God" (the vast majority of "worldwide impact" violence is commited under the guise of relligion) and yes there will be unspeakable acts commited and things will not be "peachy" but I think, without that contributing factor, there would be a significant fall in worldwide violence.

This has now digressed beyond the original debate but I still feel it is a valid and important debate.
I am aware of the, "Does God Exist?" thread (having started it) but I feel there are certain topics of debate that would be better suited to this thread.

I welcome any form of argument on the subject of relligion and its counterpart (for want of a better word).
It is my proposal that this thread accomodates any relligious or non-relligious paradox's that you can find.

I look forward to some fucking awesome discussion right here!

[snypadub]

Sorry for the double post there!

[snypadub]

can't you just say to her that if you live a good life you'll end up in heaven anyways. Because God is all about forgiveness no?
Ask her to pray for your soul and it'll all be just fine. You'll love each other for ever in heaven, day in day out for the rest of your heavenly eternal lives.

?

A Christian God is about forgiveness. In fact, according to them, he wanted to forgive us so much for our 'original sin' that he sent his only begotten son down to us to physically redeem humanity via the ultimate sacrifice.

Christians believe that we are all born of sin and throughout our lives we commit more and more of these sins. Our sins are not automatically forgiven by God, far from it. The only way we can be forgiven is to put our faith in humanity's redeemer, Jesus Christ and (because he died for our ((yours and mine)) sins) we gain redemption and admittance to the kingdom of heaven.

Having said all this, there is one sin that not even the son of God can forgive us from. The sin I am refferring to is denial of the Holy spirit and thus denial and rejection of the trinity. In commiting this sin, you are creating a Godless eternity and will suffer in hell.
You cannot be forgiven for having doubt!!

This is one of my main issues with Christianity, it forces people to believe in God with the threat of Hell. Just like a masked gunman might force you to empty the cash register/ your wallet/ insert whatever may seem applicable here...
God is the gunman and, if you reject him and ignore his prescence, he pulls the trigger and the bullet of Hell enters your body. If you accept on the other hand, you are granted permission to heaven and the whole gun issue is forgotten.

God really is a bit mean, don't you think??

[snypadub]

Have you had sex? Does she go to chruch on sundays? Does she prey every night?

Sorry for intrusive questions but there are alot of what I call "part time christians" (or any religion) out there who dont actually really understand what they are doing, and dont commit to it. But they do so kinda half assed because theyve been taught its the right thing.



Heres some more ammo for you - A human doesn't have to be taught how to eat, drink and breathe but it needs to be taught religion.


Allthought saying this. The way forward in situations like these is not to conquor one anyother. dont overpower each other with fact figures and passages from the bible. Try to understand whats going on with each other. I myself am a compelte atheist to and through and I find religous people and their reasoning absolutly fascinating. Interesting to learn of the insecuritys that people have, that often get exposed through religion.

In answer to your question:
My partner does not lead a typical Christian Life. She does not regularly attend church, nor does she believe in sex before marriage.
Her "God" exists on a slightly different level. The trouble is she still bases her God on a Biblical description. On the one hand she will tell me the Bible is fact and a litteral one! On the other hand, however, she will tell me that God is different from the bible and that if he wants to forgive me for doubting he will.
We have the Biblical fact: Denial of the holy spirit (God, Jesus and their prescence felt on Earth) will be unforgiveable.
And my girlfriend whom takes the Bible as fact who also says that I could be forgiven.

Beyond this, it is not my intention to conquer my partner! In fact, you have missed the point entirely! In order for us to be as close as we possibly can to each other, it is of vital importance that we completely understand eachothers views.
So, the initial paradox I presented was a problem I had come up with that hindered my understanding of her views and when I presented it to her It also had a strange impact.
One way or the other, in order for us to attain a closeness as close to the litteral sense of the word as possible we must, eventually, accomodate one view over the other as it is only then that we will exist on the same level (psychologically speaking).

I too find relligion fascinating! I spent a great part of my life thinking as a Christian would and, unavoidably, still uphold certain Biblical morals (Love thy neighbour is my favourite example of this). So I have an inate (poor word to use) Christian interest.
But, at the same time, cannot see a logical possibility for the God of Christianity to exist.

[deamonds]

tell her god doesnt exist, get the fuck over it & grow a sack.

[kay]

It's only a paradox if you assume that the Bible and its depiction of God is 100% correct. As opposed to a cobbled-together bunch of writings by different people that has been re-written at least twice.

It cannot possibly be 100% correct because:
- It would be impossible for mere mortals to comprehend and describe God in the fullness of his/her/its abilities and character
- If it were 100% correct, there would no possibility of multiple interpretations which you see in the world around us now. The Word of God is the Word of God, it is absolute. It isn't the Word of God As I Intepret It or the Word of God As I Feel It Should Be This Week.

(there are also other reasons but they've been covered to death in other threads, so I won't bother about dragging those out of the tombstone again)

So, since the Bible isn't 100% correct, you can probably put your own slant on just about anything in it. Therefore, since God is infinitely forgiving and loves all his creations, he should ultimately forgive your disbelieve in him, because that is what makes you you. Therefore there'll be a little place in heaven reserved for you to be with your girlfriend.

Paradox resolved.

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

do one

[snypadub]

It's only a paradox if you assume that the Bible and its depiction of God is 100% correct. As opposed to a cobbled-together bunch of writings by different people that has been re-written at least twice.

It cannot possibly be 100% correct because:
- It would be impossible for mere mortals to comprehend and describe God in the fullness of his/her/its abilities and character
- If it were 100% correct, there would no possibility of multiple interpretations which you see in the world around us now. The Word of God is the Word of God, it is absolute. It isn't the Word of God As I Intepret It or the Word of God As I Feel It Should Be This Week.

(there are also other reasons but they've been covered to death in other threads, so I won't bother about dragging those out of the tombstone again)

So, since the Bible isn't 100% correct, you can probably put your own slant on just about anything in it. Therefore, since God is infinitely forgiving and loves all his creations, he should ultimately forgive your disbelieve in him, because that is what makes you you. Therefore there'll be a little place in heaven reserved for you to be with your girlfriend.

Paradox resolved.

Notice how this paradox is resolved by the one thing I deny: GOD
I will not be in heaven or eternity because there is no heaven or eternity.
The paradox is only resolved if you have faith! I have no faith, being of a logical disposition, therefore the paradox still exists.
Although I would agree that this paradox now, takes on a different form that resides far more within the metaphorical realm.

[snypadub]

Arghhh... I twisted up a few years of my youth in the exact circumstances... Don't really wanna go into too much detail, but the honest words are get the hell out. The majority of people just need someone similar to themselves, even if just for the sake of sanity.

Can give ya info on my experiences if you think it'll help, but an internet forum isn't really the place for most of it, send a pm if so

I have loads of funny stories that involve ways in which i reduced her chance of getting into heaven though, haha

Don't be fooled by all that Corinthian's tosh though... Love isn't blind and it is selfish. Embrace it and do one

Well intrigued! Not gunna try and change her, never will! Feel free to pm me, think it would be good to hear of some similar experiences to my own!

[Project_B]

Slightly offtopic but that is the one thing i never really grasped.

People with religious faith belive that without the bible and word of god people would not have morals and respect one another.

But surly this is false, I tottaly dont belive in and religion yet I also have very strong personal morals and willpower.

[magma]

Notice how this paradox is resolved by the one thing I deny: GOD
I will not be in heaven or eternity because there is no heaven or eternity.
The paradox is only resolved if you have faith! I have no faith, being of a logical disposition, therefore the paradox still exists.
Although I would agree that this paradox now, takes on a different form that resides far more within the metaphorical realm.

Since you're the one that doesn't believe, it seems that the paradox is hers, doesn't it?

I mean, unless she convinces you to believe then any questions of you being "together" end at death from your point of view... you can give her "all" of you and you can believe that she's giving you "all" of her... though she may believe there is more to give in a different existance, you'll never actually reach that existance to find out.

It all comes down to how big a difference you think it makes in your outlooks... love has massive effects on people and can create phenomenally deep bonds between people without much in common at all (me and my lady are polar opposites when it comes to most of life, but we have extremely similar moral outlooks)... the important bit is working out if any of those differences have practical implications for you or her.

For instance - are you going to disagree about Christianing children or "teaching" them from the Bible? If so, then that's probably a bigger practical stumbling block than whether or not you can follow her to heaven.

Her views on heaven sound like they maybe need a bit of refinement... perhaps you two having this conversation will be a prompt for her to examine her thoughts on it a bit more... there seems to be a lot of "grey" at the moment?