As of 2007, no smoking in UK clubs...

[thc]

** continued from the other forum **
http://dubstep.forumsplace.com/message-1693.html

to Amen-Ra, like i keep saying, no one is forcing you to go to the club. if you dont want to smoke you can still be there.

but for those that do want to smoke, they are forced to go outside.

that is the difference.

[peripheral]

the point is clearly that you can't go to a club where peeps are smoking and avoid the smoke in any reasonable way. you can, however, go to a club an step out for a cigarette should u feel to. which is not too much of a hardship. and if you don't like it then take your own advice and stay at home.

and pls don't use the word fascist in this context again - it's offensive, mate...

[thc]

well some people smoke a lot. i think it would suck for them to be having to go outside every 15 minutes or whatever. i'm sure a lot of people enjoy smoking while their favorite dj is playing. for them to have to go outside and miss it is very unfair.

and i'll call it fascism until you can provide a good arguement as to why it's not. it being a offensive isnt a good argument.

also, i find it hard to believe that there isnt a single place you can stand in the club and not be around smoke.

[subframe]

Trust me. It's not that bad. Here in California, it's been illegal to smoke in clubs for years and years. You get used to it, and truth be told, I enjoy stepping out to suck a smoke down. Gives you a bit of a break, you can actually hear the person you;re talking to, etc...

I guess Cali doesn't get quite as cold as London, but still...

[protocolx]

fascist maybe not..

un democratic.. 100% .. i thought we lived in a so called democracy?

we have no say.. input in any of these issues!! this is possibly fascism!!

[peripheral]

Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

oh the horror, the horror, of not being able to listen to my favourite dj and smoke....

let's see - arrest, torture, disappearance of family members, gas chambers, no free press VS. not being able to smoke a cigarette in a club. yup I'm finding it a hard distinction to make.

if u or any1 else don't want to go outside every 15 mins cut down on the cigarettes init. get sum gum or summat

[peripheral]

fascist maybe not..

un democratic.. 100% .. i thought we lived in a so called democracy?

we have no say.. input in any of these issues!! this is possibly fascism!!

you get to vote, then the peeps u vote for make sum choices. that's how democracy works.

[thc]

stringent socioeconomic controls

sounds like what we're talking about to me.
also, neither i or any of the people against this said anything about sizan. you people seem to have this idea that fascism = nazism, which is not true.

[subframe]

Not smoking in a club does not equate to stringent socioeconomic controls.

It's possible that legislation like this could be a short step down a long path leading to some less-than-representative governance, but it's not really anything like fascism, now is it?

[thc]

Not smoking in a club does not equate to stringent socioeconomic controls.

care to explain?

[peripheral]

stringent socioeconomic controls

sounds like what we're talking about to me.
also, neither i or any of the people against this said anything about sizan. you people seem to have this idea that fascism = nazism, which is not true.

by mentioning fascism though you include nazism - one example. wasn't equating the 2 at all - tings I listed happened in a lot of different 'fascist' contexts, not just nazism. not being able to smoke cigarettes is not a 'stringent socioeconomic control' - this would refer for example to a nationalisation of capital (ie - state chiefing all your $s from your account) or to more social controls (like inability to make public statements against a ruling power or summat like that).

basically, the idea of liberty means that we all have rights, but these rights are reasonably limited so they don't curtail anyone else's. and in this case, a non-smoker's right not to passive smoke (which IS a trueness) is greater than your right not to have to go outside. which is, smoker or non (and I'm the former), the best compromise all round. no-one's saying you can't do what u like in yr yrd, which is where it would get dodgy (tho still not fascist, really).

and b4 u say there's places in clubs to go to where there's no smoke, these would largely = by the door, or...yup, by the door. which does not make for prime listening pleasure, either, get me...

[thc]

by mentioning fascism though you include nazism - one example.

well i didnt mean nazism. by that logic nazism is included in democracy since they did vote for hitler originally.

i think it is a stringent socioeconomic control since it's telling private business owners that people cant do something that is normally legal in their private business

[subframe]

Not smoking in a club does not equate to stringent socioeconomic controls.

care to explain?

Sure. You can't talk about fascism without talking about a link between state and corporation. Stringent socioeconomic controls in this sense means, to me, that government and corporate/industry leaders who have or take the capital work together to decide what gets produced, how production is handled, who does the production, then how distribution is handled, etc.

Capital, production, and distribution are all controlled by a very small group of government and corporate officials, who in all likelyhood do not have your best interests at heart (they are government and corporate officials, after all).

So I don't think that banning smoking has anything to do with that.

Sure, it sucks, and trust me, in the US, governmental overprotection of the populace is getting/has gotten out of control. We are adults, let us decide for ourselves what to do. But really, not smoking inside clubs just doesn't strike me as all that bad a thing.

okay, enough of that for me

[thc]

once again, i think club owners should be able to decide, not the government forcing this one idea upon everyone. if the club owners want to allow, then they should be able to, if not, then ban it.
sure, thats the way it is now and most clubs allow smoking. I think you should go protest outside clubs that allow smoking or boycott them until they change. i think there's a chance it'd be effective since there seems to be a lot more non-smokers.

[amen-ra]

fascist maybe not..

un democratic.. 100% .. i thought we lived in a so called democracy?

we have no say.. input in any of these issues!! this is possibly fascism!!

Situation's gotten way beyong these terms bro.

And once again- i put it to you Mr thc- by YOUR defintion of facism- you'd be a facist to go to the club and force your ideals on others- come on man admit it, after that you can then admit that you dont understand facism (maybe)

Also Thc you said...."no one is forcing you to go to the club. If you dont want to smoke you can still be there. But for those who want to smoke, they are forced outside"

But you are only FORCED to go outside if you are FORCED to smoke surely. This is what I meant by people mistaking freedom of choice with compulsion. What ya think?

Also, if you want to smoke you can still go to the club, u jus gotta accept that if u smoke there you're breaking the law and some peeps might not like that. Jus like when u piss in the street, a lot of peeps dont like that either, but that doesn physically stop peeps from doing it.

I feel sorry for them peeps that have become government experiments- they really fuck with your heads them MP's do. "Here's a cigarette, buy it, smoke it, love it. Now give it back coz you're killing yourself and others"
"but you said......", "Sorry mr lungs no!!!", "but.........", "Shut-up!!!!"


This is why shit is so deep right now- even those things that appear to be win-win situations are not recognised as such because of how backwards we've become. "Do what thou wilt will be the law" YES but also contend with the fact that it is up to you to find out what the consequences of what you do are and that anything can also be done to you (by the universe or by other peeps).

YOU ARE FREE TO DO WHAT U WANT BUT SO ARE OTHERS

One

[thc]

it's seems to me that we'd have more freedom if club owners were able to decide. some clubs would have smoking, some wouldnt. making it so all clubs dont allow smoking doesnt seem like freedom to me.

[peripheral]

by mentioning fascism though you include nazism - one example.

well i didnt mean nazism. by that logic nazism is included in democracy since they did vote for hitler originally.

nazism=democracy?? is it??! not enuf space on this forum to explain how wrong that is....

basically, you're not outraged primarily about civil liberties/state control - you're jus vexed cos this law affects you personally. ho well, init...not a lot doing now.

yup nuff for me 2...

[thc]

by mentioning fascism though you include nazism - one example.

well i didnt mean nazism. by that logic nazism is included in democracy since they did vote for hitler originally.

nazism=democracy?? is it??! not enuf space on this forum to explain how wrong that is....

basically, you're not outraged primarily about civil liberties/state control - you're jus vexed cos this law affects you personally. ho well, init...not a lot doing now.

yup nuff for me 2...

ok, first off, you missed my point entirely about the nazism thing. i dont actually believe democracy equals nazism. i was saying that to disprove the idea that nazism is automatically included when i mention the word fascism.

second, you dont know that this affects me personally. you know nothing about my life. i dont smoke ciggarettes and rarely go to clubs. i dont even live in the UK.

the reason for my position is not for my own personal benifit like it is for you guys, but because i am against the government having this kind of control over private business.

[amen-ra]

by mentioning fascism though you include nazism - one example.

well i didnt mean nazism. by that logic nazism is included in democracy since they did vote for hitler originally.

nazism=democracy?? is it??! not enuf space on this forum to explain how wrong that is....

basically, you're not outraged primarily about civil liberties/state control - you're jus vexed cos this law affects you personally. ho well, init...not a lot doing now.

yup nuff for me 2...

ok, first off, you missed my point entirely abou the nazism thing. i dont actually believe democracy equals nazism. i was saying that to disprove the idea that nazism is automatically included when i mention the word fascism.

second, you dont know that this affects me personally. you know nothing about my life. i dont smoke ciggarettes and rarely go to clubs.

the reason i am against this is not for my own personal benifit like it is for you guys, but because i am against the government having this kind of control over private business.

I think the governments point is that this aint private business no more (with the passive smoking ting now being realised) and once it gets into public arenas (clubs etc) then the peoples rely on the government to do what's fair.

And also i think freedom is expressed when u take that first cigarette, u chose through freedom to do it (or maybe under pressure), but after that initial stage it becomes "compulsion", "convention", all in all "habit". Freedom's then out of the picture bro

I admire you fighting for your cause and believing in individual choice but i dont think you're doing it on the right topic.

Stopping people from smoking in public spaces; good ting. Stopping people from doing something that u made them addicted to (under the disguise of freedom of choice); bad ting and highly hypocritical and highly highly dangerous. We're the inheritors of an illusion so this means we're living in an illusion of an illusion probably of another illusion

implications; you have to dig, dig,dig to find, Find, FIND

or i could be chattin the most almighty load of bollox and really our societal conventions are spot on

You find out and let me know

[amen-ra]

Oh yea and Im not saying this because of personl benefit. I blaze the odd zoot when Im in the club, but i've jus learnt to go without because I wanna be in control blood, dont wanna get to the stage where i cant see myself in a club without ziggy.