Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

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Kochari
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Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Kochari » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:38 pm

Hey gang

I'm really getting into my reggae & dub, as well as rootsy dubstep like RSD/Smith & Mighty, and I'm wondering if we could start a discussion about these styles of production. Share tips, ask questions etc. So without further ado...

- Automate everything. Reverbs/delays/phase amount etc should never be the same throughout the tune.
- Use all those mental noises you can create a la Datsik/Excision (bear with me) but instead of using them melodically/rhythmically in a bassline, fade them in/out, pan them, add delays and huge reverbs and use them as effects or transitions.
- I like to put a low pass (not too low!) on the snare/guitars (after reverb) with a slow LFO to keep things moving and interesting. Similar to the first point I suppose.
- Palm muted guitar lines sound AMAZING

Also a question from me: Is it possible to create a feedback loop in Logic 9 with no input - ie a digital version of output -> input like on hardware mixers?

Nice one guys :Z:

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by alphacat » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:58 pm

The key is the bassline [IMHO] - it carries both the rhythm and the melody. It's like the car engine of dub & reggae in general.

Everything else can be shattering, mutating, distoring, echoing to the nines... but a rock solid bassline will hold it all down and carry the listener onwards wherever you wanna take 'em. For further reference go check out the basslines from songs by The Mighty Diamonds, Wailing Souls, anything that Leroy Sibbles played on for Studio 1, anything that Aston "Family Man" Barrett (who taught Robbie Shakespeare how to play bass!) played on... let's see... Lloyd Parks, Dennis Bovell...

I went to see the Wailing Souls not too long back and was blown away by the bassist - not because he was showing off and playing fancy riffs, but rather because he was the rhythm section - everybody was keeping time off him, including the drummer. That guy was holdin' it down like fuckin' gravity, man.

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by amphibian » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:36 pm

What alpha said. Reggae has some amazing melodies that are within the bassline itself. This is then layered with lots of skanks, incidentals.etc. all with various reverbs and delays on them.
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by jaydot » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:35 am

Reverb and delay is very important. 8) (as others have said)

And if you get a good source of reggae vox/FX give me a shout as I'm finding them hard to come by (I've also got some to share)
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by legend4ry » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:48 am

http://www.sendspace.com/file/txqlje

heres a decent sample pack :)

Fills, Bits of drums, chords & vocals.
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Kochari » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:52 am

legend4ry wrote:http://www.sendspace.com/file/txqlje

heres a decent sample pack :)

Fills, Bits of drums, chords & vocals.
:U:

Good stuff so far, keep it coming!
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by deadly_habit » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:59 am

space delay, spring verbs, lofi noise machines and imperfections and saturation are your friends
http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=28

also look to natural and real recorded drum packs, rim shots are great

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Sirius » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:10 am

for feedback loops...

create a delay send.. have it open slightly,
& then send it back in on itself on its buss.

its the same as ya would do on a desk.

then fuck around with eqs & reverbs on that buss.

just do it in moderation & ya will sort it!

i prefer to record these in realtime & tweak with a controller!

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Y_H » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:16 am

I used to make dub reggae and record myself playing the melodica over it.
Its so hard to get that vintage sound though.

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Ldizzy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:14 am

the bass.... its really the bass... from what i hear as im not really versed in that field

also im pretty sure integrating a lot of samples (dirty ones) to ur sound could help u get that certain organic feel that contrasts so beautifully with the synthetic stuff.
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by jsills » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:12 pm

big up to alphacat for dropping familyman's name in here, thats exactly my first thought when it comes to sick reggae basslines. reggae basslines walk all over the place and definitely tend to be melodic and bouncey.
wish i still had a wahwah pedal and a guitar.

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Kochari » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:30 pm

matthewcradduck wrote:I used to make dub reggae and record myself playing the melodica over it.
Its so hard to get that vintage sound though.

Sample pack maybe? :wink:
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Johnst » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:33 pm

alphacat wrote:The key is the bassline [IMHO] - it carries both the rhythm and the melody. It's like the car engine of dub & reggae in general.

I went to see the Wailing Souls not too long back and was blown away by the bassist - not because he was showing off and playing fancy riffs, but rather because he was the rhythm section - everybody was keeping time off him, including the drummer. That guy was holdin' it down like fuckin' gravity, man.
alpha... FUCK yes. when i saw sly and robbie there were like 5 or 10 minute periods of ONLY bass and drums, but it was mind blowing. the basslines were just rock fucking solid, which is exactly what a reggae bassist should do. especially in terms of dub, if you listen to any of the original dub stuff, it is, at it's core, just massive bass with supporting drums, with verbed vocals and guitar sprinkled on top. being a bassist, i won't lie, it's one of the reasons i love bass music like dub, dubstep, and dnb.

oh, and also hefty amounts of funk. parliament FTW! :h:
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by jaydot » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:51 pm

Off topic AGAIN but David Rodigan's sets are a good vibe, lots of old skool reggae and dub mixed with the likes of Hard featuring Caspa! 8)
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by alphacat » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:07 pm

Rodigan! Love the fact that the man's almost as old as my dad and still a-run tings...

I think we need a Rodigan smily, in fact.

Back to the dub business... there was a Melodica plugin years back from Prodyon (sp?) - wondering if any of you turkeys have a copy floating around on your system somewhere.
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Kochari » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:15 pm

alphacat wrote:Rodigan!
Back to the dub business... there was a Melodica plugin years back from Prodyon (sp?) - wondering if any of you turkeys have a copy floating around on your system somewhere.
Seconded, I need me a good melodica vst -q-
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Sharmaji » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:19 pm

matthewcradduck wrote:Its so hard to get that vintage sound though.
in general i'm not one for the tape vs. digital arguments, but this is one case where it's nearly impossible to recreate the vibe of multiply-submixed sounds w/o tape. The wonders of shit like the congos' "In the Heart of the Congos" is that so many elements are like 3rd, 4th, 5th generation removed-- recorded, bounced, re-bounced, re-re-bounced, re-re-re-bounced, etc. it does wonders to the higher elements of your tracks-- all those sharp-but-not-sizzly hihats, etc.

i have yet to come across any sort of digital emulation that can do that. maybe multiple layers of fatso or something.


for a feedback loop in logic, just create an aux and feed it back to itself via the sends. if you create an intermediary aux, you'll get phasing problems (one of those moments where logic's PDC craps out.)
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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by walker101 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:08 pm

when im making that sort of track i try to keep it a bit 'rough' sounding , dont go overboard on compression and use organic sounds.

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by alphacat » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:19 pm

re: "nearly impossible to recreate the vibe of multiply-submixed sounds w/o tape" -

It's true: we're a ways off from making 1's and 0's produce the same results as pushing electrons through matter. That shouldn't stop anyone from trying though, and you also don't have to be rich to try some tape bounces using standard cassette tape. You can even use the audio i/o sends on a VCR to bounce mixes down (make sure it doesn't have too much compression on it though, as some VCRs have internal compression circuits designed to compensate for shitty little TV speakers.) The now infamous DAT tapes (yes, I know, digital and not analog... but hear me out-) was exactly the same in specs as Betamax, so if you happen to find an old Betamax VCR in the thrift shop or something - you just found yourself a cheap recording device. Add a couple boom boxes or some 2nd hand 4 track or 8 track recorders and you've opened a whole new world of production techniques. Also, tape tends to make drums sound incredibly fat so if nothing else maybe try running your drum submix out onto tape and then back into the computer before final mixdown.

Here's a dub tutorial from a few years back that's got some good pointers as well as some kinda obvious/cliché stuff. Still a good little read though.
musicradar.com wrote:
25 dub tips

Find out how you can become a dub star...


1. Dub pioneers such as superhuman nutcase Lee Scratch Perry get their starling, otherworldly sound by misusing and experimenting with regular bits of kit. For example, King Tubby would use a mixing console test tone, swathed in delay and reverb to create those characteristic lo-fi sci-fi effects. Give it a go!

2. Dub is much more than just a subgenre of reggae, it's a production style that can be used and adapted how you wish. Disparate styles such as ambient (The Orb), rock (Public Image Limited) and techno (Leftfield) use dub tricks and techniques, so don't be afraid to twist it to your own ends.

3. The key to getting that twisted dub sound is all in the details. Get to know what every control on your delay and reverb plug-ins does - sometimes a seemingly incongruous function can have a dramatic effect when part of a big effects chain. Delay effects where you can mess with the pitch of the signal work particularly well for creating abstract sounds.

4. A big part of traditional dub is the mellifluous sound of the bass guitar. However, if recording real instruments isn't an option, you could get away with using a monophonic bass synth with reasonably long release time and careful use of your MIDI controller's pitchbend wheel for added expression.

5. If you're able to record live playing for your tracks, using unusual instruments can add an individual tinge to your music. Played in the correct style and with the right processing, any instrument can have that dubbed-out flavour. Likewise, 'found sounds' put through some delay, reverb and other effects will always add a unique touch.

6. The organ is a commonly used instrument in dub, and as its sound is fairly easy to reproduce digitally, you can get away with using a plug-in version without it sounding too cheesy.

7. Vocals, instruments and effects that have a lot of delay on them can sound great when silenced halfway through a word or musical phrase.

8. Much of dub's hard-hitting power comes from its combination of big bass and drum sounds. For maximum impact, sequence your bassline to trigger on the same note as your kick drum. Switching it to the offbeat will give a more laid-back, syncopated feel.

9. For some truly authentic dub-style processing, organise your track into groups of instruments, and use aux effect chains tweaked live. This will give you less control than automating each part's effects individually, but this method is truer to the techniques employed by the original dub scientists.

10. Dynamically used effects are possibly the most important characteristic of the dub sound. For instance, occasionally the snare will get a big hit of reverb for impact, but this would sound ridiculous on every snare in the track. Automation can be used to apply effects only when needed, though you may find manually 'riding the faders' gives the mix a more human quality.

11. When using effects chains, it's important to accurately control two parameters at once - for example, a delay unit's feedback level and the cutoff level of a filter. Controlling two parameters at once with your mouse is a nightmare, so if possible, use a MIDI controller instead to give you a more hands-on approach.

Effects

12. Big drum sounds are important if you want your dub tracks to hit hard, so try using an overdrive plug-in to warm up your percussion parts.

13. As for reverb effects, Ambience is hard to beat. For a crazy lo-fi effect, turn the Quality/CPU control down until the sound starts to disintegrate. Set it to 0% then adjust the Size for an even more twisted sound.

14. Classic Dub tends to involve a lot of saturation caused by overloading an analogue desk - hard to recreate easily on your computer. However, some kind of saturation plug-in such as Chrissy can add a little of that analogue warmth to your tracks, and as a bonus it'll also filter and alias your sounds.

15. Another great free plug-in designed specifically for the creation of dub is the wacky Dub Siren, a tone generator designed to imitate the simple siren and sci-fi sounds that were common in early dub and still pop up now and again today. Stick it through some reverb and delay - keep fiddling until you feel irie.

16. Before the arrival of modern digital effects units, many studios would use spring reverbs. This kind of sound can be heard on countless dub records, and is easily recreated using any spring reverb plug-in.

17. The order of the effects that you use will have a dramatic impact on the shape of the sound produced. While it's traditional to use delay and reverb effects after any others, try switching the order round to create something a bit more unusual. Processing a delayed signal with other effects can give you that big abstract type of dub sound.

18. When creating dub rhythm tracks, a great deal of the sound comes from the reverb you use. Experiment with your reverb unit's pre-delay, time and size values to see what different feels and vibes can be created - but be careful not to drown out the original drum sound, as this still needs to punch through the mix.

19. You can give movement to your track's rhythm section by adding effects to the higher pitched sounds such as hats and cymbals. Phaser, filter or flanger effects work particularly well. Rather than having the effect play constantly throughout the track, try changing the rate and mix controls for more dynamic movement.

20. If your delay unit has a filter control, try using it to dynamically control the shape of the feedback - the same goes for tone and damping controls.

Delay

21. When creating those mysterious dub soundscapes, reverb and delay are your best friends. Try out a variety of these effects until you find some that you work well with. The utterly bargainous DubStation ($39) is ideal, but if you're a little short, try Echomania, which is free.

22. Be careful when using high feedback delay values - they can cause the volume level of a track to build up to potentially dangerous levels. In particular, watch out if you're using automated feedback settings; if you stop the track in a section with a high feedback setting it'll keep feeding back until you skip to a section with a lower feedback level. Try using a limiter plug-in after any delay units with extreme settings.

23. Changing your delay unit's setting creates different rhythms, but you may find that attempting this in real time causes your plug-in to emit annoying 'zipper' noises. If you hanker after dynamic delay time changes, give mda DubDelay a go. Try rapidly razzing the delay time setting to create wild pitch-changing effects.

24. Most software delay plug-ins enable you to sync the delays perfectly to the host's tempo. While this creates a nice tidy echo effect, for that true old-school dub feel you should really turn the synchronisation off and get an approximate delay time instead. While this might not sound as neat and tidy as using host sync, it'll sound much more organic in a traditional dub stylee.

25. Though at times it can sound chaotic, proper orchestration is important to keep a dub track flowing nicely - for instance, feedback sweeps can be made more striking by cutting out other tracks for their duration. Bring the bass and drum parts back in at the same time for maximum impact.

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Re: Reggae/Dub style dubstep production

Post by Sirius » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:41 pm

alphacat wrote:re: "nearly impossible to recreate the vibe of multiply-submixed sounds w/o tape" -

It's true: we're a ways off from making 1's and 0's produce the same results as pushing electrons through matter. That shouldn't stop anyone from trying though, and you also don't have to be rich to try some tape bounces using standard cassette tape. You can even use the audio i/o sends on a VCR to bounce mixes down (make sure it doesn't have too much compression on it though, as some VCRs have internal compression circuits designed to compensate for shitty little TV speakers.) The now infamous DAT tapes (yes, I know, digital and not analog... but hear me out-) was exactly the same in specs as Betamax, so if you happen to find an old Betamax VCR in the thrift shop or something - you just found yourself a cheap recording device. Add a couple boom boxes or some 2nd hand 4 track or 8 track recorders and you've opened a whole new world of production techniques. Also, tape tends to make drums sound incredibly fat so if nothing else maybe try running your drum submix out onto tape and then back into the computer before final mixdown.

Here's a dub tutorial from a few years back that's got some good pointers as well as some kinda obvious/cliché stuff. Still a good little read though.
musicradar.com wrote:
25 dub tips

Find out how you can become a dub star...


1. Dub pioneers such as superhuman nutcase Lee Scratch Perry get their starling, otherworldly sound by misusing and experimenting with regular bits of kit. For example, King Tubby would use a mixing console test tone, swathed in delay and reverb to create those characteristic lo-fi sci-fi effects. Give it a go!

2. Dub is much more than just a subgenre of reggae, it's a production style that can be used and adapted how you wish. Disparate styles such as ambient (The Orb), rock (Public Image Limited) and techno (Leftfield) use dub tricks and techniques, so don't be afraid to twist it to your own ends.

3. The key to getting that twisted dub sound is all in the details. Get to know what every control on your delay and reverb plug-ins does - sometimes a seemingly incongruous function can have a dramatic effect when part of a big effects chain. Delay effects where you can mess with the pitch of the signal work particularly well for creating abstract sounds.

4. A big part of traditional dub is the mellifluous sound of the bass guitar. However, if recording real instruments isn't an option, you could get away with using a monophonic bass synth with reasonably long release time and careful use of your MIDI controller's pitchbend wheel for added expression.

5. If you're able to record live playing for your tracks, using unusual instruments can add an individual tinge to your music. Played in the correct style and with the right processing, any instrument can have that dubbed-out flavour. Likewise, 'found sounds' put through some delay, reverb and other effects will always add a unique touch.

6. The organ is a commonly used instrument in dub, and as its sound is fairly easy to reproduce digitally, you can get away with using a plug-in version without it sounding too cheesy.

7. Vocals, instruments and effects that have a lot of delay on them can sound great when silenced halfway through a word or musical phrase.

8. Much of dub's hard-hitting power comes from its combination of big bass and drum sounds. For maximum impact, sequence your bassline to trigger on the same note as your kick drum. Switching it to the offbeat will give a more laid-back, syncopated feel.

9. For some truly authentic dub-style processing, organise your track into groups of instruments, and use aux effect chains tweaked live. This will give you less control than automating each part's effects individually, but this method is truer to the techniques employed by the original dub scientists.

10. Dynamically used effects are possibly the most important characteristic of the dub sound. For instance, occasionally the snare will get a big hit of reverb for impact, but this would sound ridiculous on every snare in the track. Automation can be used to apply effects only when needed, though you may find manually 'riding the faders' gives the mix a more human quality.

11. When using effects chains, it's important to accurately control two parameters at once - for example, a delay unit's feedback level and the cutoff level of a filter. Controlling two parameters at once with your mouse is a nightmare, so if possible, use a MIDI controller instead to give you a more hands-on approach.

Effects

12. Big drum sounds are important if you want your dub tracks to hit hard, so try using an overdrive plug-in to warm up your percussion parts.

13. As for reverb effects, Ambience is hard to beat. For a crazy lo-fi effect, turn the Quality/CPU control down until the sound starts to disintegrate. Set it to 0% then adjust the Size for an even more twisted sound.

14. Classic Dub tends to involve a lot of saturation caused by overloading an analogue desk - hard to recreate easily on your computer. However, some kind of saturation plug-in such as Chrissy can add a little of that analogue warmth to your tracks, and as a bonus it'll also filter and alias your sounds.

15. Another great free plug-in designed specifically for the creation of dub is the wacky Dub Siren, a tone generator designed to imitate the simple siren and sci-fi sounds that were common in early dub and still pop up now and again today. Stick it through some reverb and delay - keep fiddling until you feel irie.

16. Before the arrival of modern digital effects units, many studios would use spring reverbs. This kind of sound can be heard on countless dub records, and is easily recreated using any spring reverb plug-in.

17. The order of the effects that you use will have a dramatic impact on the shape of the sound produced. While it's traditional to use delay and reverb effects after any others, try switching the order round to create something a bit more unusual. Processing a delayed signal with other effects can give you that big abstract type of dub sound.

18. When creating dub rhythm tracks, a great deal of the sound comes from the reverb you use. Experiment with your reverb unit's pre-delay, time and size values to see what different feels and vibes can be created - but be careful not to drown out the original drum sound, as this still needs to punch through the mix.

19. You can give movement to your track's rhythm section by adding effects to the higher pitched sounds such as hats and cymbals. Phaser, filter or flanger effects work particularly well. Rather than having the effect play constantly throughout the track, try changing the rate and mix controls for more dynamic movement.

20. If your delay unit has a filter control, try using it to dynamically control the shape of the feedback - the same goes for tone and damping controls.

Delay

21. When creating those mysterious dub soundscapes, reverb and delay are your best friends. Try out a variety of these effects until you find some that you work well with. The utterly bargainous DubStation ($39) is ideal, but if you're a little short, try Echomania, which is free.

22. Be careful when using high feedback delay values - they can cause the volume level of a track to build up to potentially dangerous levels. In particular, watch out if you're using automated feedback settings; if you stop the track in a section with a high feedback setting it'll keep feeding back until you skip to a section with a lower feedback level. Try using a limiter plug-in after any delay units with extreme settings.

23. Changing your delay unit's setting creates different rhythms, but you may find that attempting this in real time causes your plug-in to emit annoying 'zipper' noises. If you hanker after dynamic delay time changes, give mda DubDelay a go. Try rapidly razzing the delay time setting to create wild pitch-changing effects.

24. Most software delay plug-ins enable you to sync the delays perfectly to the host's tempo. While this creates a nice tidy echo effect, for that true old-school dub feel you should really turn the synchronisation off and get an approximate delay time instead. While this might not sound as neat and tidy as using host sync, it'll sound much more organic in a traditional dub stylee.

25. Though at times it can sound chaotic, proper orchestration is important to keep a dub track flowing nicely - for instance, feedback sweeps can be made more striking by cutting out other tracks for their duration. Bring the bass and drum parts back in at the same time for maximum impact.
A+ contribution nig!! I have been playing with these concepts live for sometime!!
Dub music is the greatest music!!

ONE LOVE!!

!!chea
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 8&start=20
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