Emotional epic dubstep geniusness!

dnbscene_marc · Post by **dnbscene_marc** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:45 am

Wow, just heard this tune on our site, what a great piece of music. Rare to see such emotion conveyed in an electronic genre of music. This guy is destined for big things in the future.

http://www.dnbscene.com/track/puzzlefactory-pixel-dust

kaiori breathe · Post by **kaiori breathe** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:51 am

S'all right, pretty typical 'emotional moment' chord sequence used in nearly every film score ever copied and pasted over 7 minutes and voiced in a couple of different ways. Nothing special imo. Nice tune, just not as amazing as you led me to believe it was going to be...

I should stop listening to recommendations made via threads in the production forum, I'm always left disappointed.

collective · Post by **collective** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:59 am

LOL.... reading that and the subsequent review and then listening to the song. AHAHAHAHA amazing.

paravrais · Post by **paravrais** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:00 am

kaiori breathe wrote:S'all right, pretty typical 'emotional moment' chord sequence used in nearly every film score ever copied and pasted over 7 minutes and voiced in a couple of different ways. Nothing special imo. Nice tune, just not as amazing as you led me to believe it was going to be...

+1
I actually wouldn't have even rated it particularly good at all. The strings are quite nice but the rest of the track sounds very poorly produced.

By the way if your not hearing that kind of emotion in the electronic music your listening to you need to really branch out, there are many artists doing that and a million times more as well. Try Jon Hopkins, Nathan Fake, James Blake, Phaeleh, N'to, Boards of Canada etc etc

Also check out kaiori breathe, the above poster. Not meaning to be crude but he dicks all over that track XD

AllNightDayDream · Post by **AllNightDayDream** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:15 am

I liked it... a lot. What would make this track perfect would be just a little more variation in the melody and rhythm, and like the guy said, certain parts just drag more than they need to. JUST short of being a memorable track IMO.

JBE · Post by **JBE** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:49 am

I expected so much more from the intro. When it drops it left me rather disappointed. My guess is the entirety of the cinematic stuff is a sample. If anyone was able to produce that orchestral stuff themselves out of their own synths, the drop would have been simply amazing.

EDN · Post by **EDN** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:59 am

Nice idea, and good sounding samples (although a bit too obviously sample library creations, however I am fully guilty of the same) but not well developed enough.
Its having a war with itself between wanting to be a deep piece (melody etc.) and a banger (drums+bass).

What I don't like however is that a lot of people (sorry not trying to sound like a dick) think that as soon as you get some orchestral instruments into electronic music it instantly becomes a work of emotional genius. It takes proper compositional skill to pull off orchestral properly, believe me, I'm trying it (and sucking compared to proper composers) at the moment and its fucking haaard.

And Kaori, you've got maaaad chops son. Your atmospheres are fuckin amazing. If I had a label I would sign you.

JemGrover · Post by **JemGrover** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:20 am

Brought to my attention by the latest Solitude mix that I just thought was worth sharing in light of this....

No need for massive kicks, or thumping snares.
But you have to listen to it all the way through
An Incredibly stirring piece of music

kaiori breathe · Post by **kaiori breathe** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:58 am

THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT FILM SCORES

AllNightDayDream · Post by **AllNightDayDream** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:25 am

Eh most film scores made today are so cookie cutter it's ridiculous. With just basic knowledge about theory you could easily surpass that kinda shit. Cinematic scores ain't what they used to be... At least this guy did more than drone a single reverberated string for 8 bars...

JemGrover · Post by **JemGrover** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:46 am

AllNightDayDream wrote:Eh most film scores made today are so cookie cutter it's ridiculous. With just basic knowledge about theory you could easily surpass that kinda shit.

Not really?!
There are some serious shitty films I've watched over the years that have had amazing scores. Stuff that you wouldn't even expect to warrant it. And loads of mainstream stuff- The newer Batman films with Hans Zimmer, too.
Real "popcorn" films with these amazing pieces of music in 'em.

kaiori breathe · Post by **kaiori breathe** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:26 am

AllNightDayDream wrote:Eh most film scores made today are so cookie cutter it's ridiculous. With just basic knowledge about theory you could easily surpass that kinda shit. Cinematic scores ain't what they used to be... At least this guy did more than drone a single reverberated string for 8 bars...

Film scores now might be produced quickly and to a formula but that doesn't mean they're of a low quality.

Just because it follows a formula doesn't mean it's bad, you hire a hundred musicians and tell them all to write a song using the 1-6-5 chord sequence, if you're really lucky, one guy will come to you with something good, if you want something great you'd probably have to hire a thousand musicians.

Getting even one of them to write a strong film score following that basic formula is even harder...

Ultimately film scores kinda have to follow a formula, during an emotive scene what do you want to hear, something 'cool' and 'original' that throws the text books out the window and follows a strange and unusual chord sequence with key changes and borrowed chords - it might be a great piece, but it's probably not going to fit - or do you want to hear a piece of music that works? Films are made for the masses, as such you need a user friendly film score. It's not a bad thing. You can still make a strong piece while following a formula.

Hanz Zimmer rigorously follows formula and his work is fantastic, it inspires all the emotions it's meant to. Thomas Newman has pretty much re-used the same material the entire way through his film scoring career, but it's all brilliant and he comes up with creative and inspiring ways of voicing the same ideas and the same chord movements and the same melodies.

I'd consider your statement that with basic theory you could surpass modern film scores to be pretty ignorant to be honest. There's so much more to film scoring than just knowing your theory. You need a pretty vast understanding of how an orchestra works, how to write for each section, the ability to write without hearing the piece first or at the ability to translate what you hear on your piano into a full scale orchestra in your head (since neither daw, nor piano, nor guitar, nor glockenspiel are an effective gauge of how it will sound when it's translated to full orchestra) -and when you're writing for an orchestra you can't have them play each 8 bar part as you write it) the ability to pick instruments for your melodies and harmonic movements effectively - for instance bassoons are usually comedic, oboes are sad or mourning more often than not and pianos are particularly poignant in a film score - on top of all that basic theory doesn't cut it, nearly everything written by thomas newman is modal and needs to be to create the atmospheres he creates, modes aren't basic, nor is writing using them, nor is moving between them effectively. Plus there's timing considerations, which are far from basic, you need to be able to write a piece that can move through different sections that reflect each 5-10 seconds of what your seeing without it being jarring, that's not an easy task with basic theory. Also, what if you're writing for a horror movie or a murder scene or a thriller? Most horror movie's sound tracks, and film scores written for thrillers, are atonal or at least dabble in it on a scene by scene basis, are you telling me that's basic theory? (No hitting random notes does not count as writing atonally and no that is not what film score composers do) I'm pretty sure pitch class sets are not basic... On top of all that composing for orchestra isn't enough anymore, you need a strong understanding of sound design, if you're writing for a sci fi movie, or even if you just have a particularly fast paced scene set in an industrial complex or a factory a basic orchestra will sound naff you need to be able to create new sounds that reflect the environment of the movie. If all that isn't enough you also need to be pretty on the ball when it comes to pop music and pop culture if you can't write a piece that reflects or at least incorporates elements from the culture and the society that the movie is directed at you're fucked. Oh and you need to know your formulas inside out and know when to use them. None of that is basic.

Summary : Formulas aren't bad. Basic theory didn't write (and isn't going to surpass) the soundtracks to any major movie of the last decade.

AllNightDayDream · Post by **AllNightDayDream** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:48 am

kaiori breathe wrote:
AllNightDayDream wrote:Eh most film scores made today are so cookie cutter it's ridiculous. With just basic knowledge about theory you could easily surpass that kinda shit. Cinematic scores ain't what they used to be... At least this guy did more than drone a single reverberated string for 8 bars...
Film scores now might be produced quickly and to a formula but that doesn't mean they're of a low quality.

Just because it follows a formula doesn't mean it's bad, you hire a hundred musicians and tell them all to write a song using the 1-6-5 chord sequence, if you're really lucky, one guy will come to you with something good, if you want something great you'd probably have to hire a thousand musicians.

Getting even one of them to write a strong film score following that basic formula is even harder...

Ultimately film scores kinda have to follow a formula, during an emotive scene what do you want to hear, something 'cool' and 'original' that throws the text books out the window and follows a strange and unusual chord sequence with key changes and borrowed chords - it might be a great piece, but it's probably not going to fit - or do you want to hear a piece of music that works? Films are made for the masses, as such you need a user friendly film score. It's not a bad thing. You can still make a strong piece while following a formula.

Hanz Zimmer rigorously follows formula and his work is fantastic, it inspires all the emotions it's meant to. Thomas Newman has pretty much re-used the same material the entire way through his film scoring career, but it's all brilliant and he comes up with creative and inspiring ways of voicing the same ideas and the same chord movements and the same melodies.

I'd consider your statement that with basic theory you could surpass modern film scores to be pretty ignorant to be honest. There's so much more to film scoring than just knowing your theory. You need a pretty vast understanding of how an orchestra works, how to write for each section, the ability to write without hearing the piece first or at the ability to translate what you hear on your piano into a full scale orchestra in your head (since neither daw, nor piano, nor guitar, nor glockenspiel are an effective gauge of how it will sound when it's translated to full orchestra) -and when you're writing for an orchestra you can't have them play each 8 bar part as you write it) the ability to pick instruments for your melodies and harmonic movements effectively - for instance bassoons are usually comedic, oboes are sad or mourning more often than not and pianos are particularly poignant in a film score - on top of all that basic theory doesn't cut it, nearly everything written by thomas newman is modal and needs to be to create the atmospheres he creates, modes aren't basic, nor is writing using them, nor is moving between them effectively. Plus there's timing considerations, which are far from basic, you need to be able to write a piece that can move through different sections that reflect each 5-10 seconds of what your seeing without it being jarring, that's not an easy task with basic theory. Also, what if you're writing for a horror movie or a murder scene or a thriller? Most horror movie's sound tracks, and film scores written for thrillers, are atonal or at least dabble in it on a scene by scene basis, are you telling me that's basic theory? (No hitting random notes does not count as writing atonally and no that is not what film score composers do) I'm pretty sure pitch class sets are not basic... On top of all that composing for orchestra isn't enough anymore, you need a strong understanding of sound design, if you're writing for a sci fi movie, or even if you just have a particularly fast paced scene set in an industrial complex or a factory a basic orchestra will sound naff you need to be able to create new sounds that reflect the environment of the movie. If all that isn't enough you also need to be pretty on the ball when it comes to pop music and pop culture if you can't write a piece that reflects or at least incorporates elements from the culture and the society that the movie is directed at you're fucked. Oh and you need to know your formulas inside out and know when to use them. None of that is basic.

Summary : Formulas aren't bad. Basic theory didn't write (and isn't going to surpass) the soundtracks to any major movie of the last decade.

Hiring a hundred random musicians doesn't mean they all have basic understanding of theory. I'd wager that a dozen guys who write/perform jazz or even blues would come out with some decent soundtrack pieces. Although I admittedly went too far in what I said, I just find it funny that of all the pieces to choose, this very formulaic style is considered great film score writing. It's the same rehashed telling of a certain emotion imo. Really it has little to do with the specific chord changes they choose(which is definitely there). In punk rock for example, the same 4 chords can have endless possibilities to make a track really powerful and memorable. I'll post examples of what I mean...

@the bold: As for actual writing, HELL NO. This whole paragraph makes no sense. Film is art, saying it's made for the masses would be like saying music is made for the masses. There's what is easily accessible and there is everything else. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I just think it's funny that people think pieces like those in "The Fountain" and those in this thread that follow the same minimal formula makes for a memorable soundtrack, or great composition but that's just my opinion and those pieces get their specified job done. Yeah, of course there are specific scenes that require a 30 or so second cut of drones purely for atmosphere, but among composers that's childs play. Eh really It's just me bagging on other people's tastes I guess...

This is what I would consider emotional composition
<iframe src="/forum/video.php?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0jFrXO22_o&feature=related" frameborder="0" style="overflow:hidden; height:auto; max-width:540px"></iframe><iframe src="/forum/video.php?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjXvptz3pW8&feature=related" frameborder="0" style="overflow:hidden; height:auto; max-width:540px"></iframe>
<iframe src="/forum/video.php?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1I09C86r7w" frameborder="0" style="overflow:hidden; height:auto; max-width:540px"></iframe><iframe src="/forum/video.php?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mfyCI82lWM" frameborder="0" style="overflow:hidden; height:auto; max-width:540px"></iframe>
Quality's not very good in the reiser piece, btw...

tripwire22 · Post by **tripwire22** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:06 am

I ain't heard the track but I'm sure me and kaiori have shit on it with our epic emotive genius dubstep

dnbscene_marc · Post by **dnbscene_marc** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:01 am

Haha, Merry Christmas you lot.

@paravrais: I've only heard Boards of Canada out of that lot but if that's anything to go by then you're comparing apples with oranges. BoC is proper beard-stroking nerd-music, one for the real musos which is why they're so widely beloved by electronic musicians and geeky music journalists, as well as (hate to say it) 20-year-old hipsters. I personally loved Geogaddi, but using that as a comparison on emotive merit against Puzzle Factory's tune is a bit like comparing a Coldplay tune to Faure's Requiem. A better comparison, in my opinion, is Boom Boom Satellites and their Out Loud album, which impressively was made entirely on a pair of Akai MPC2000s and is much more closely fitted to the genre Puzzle Factory is aiming for.

@JBE: his other stuff uses the same synth set so while the sounds themselves may be sampled, he's not actually using sample cuts. I would have thought that was obvious during the breakdown when you can blatantly hear the beginning of the attack envelope on the violin. That's what impresses me about this guy, he can actually compose something.

As for all the discussion about film scores, I don't see what that has to do with this tune. Puzzle Factory has used instruments and arrangements that happen to have been used in film scores (as well as big beat, trance and pretty much all of late 90s electronica as I recall), but to compare this tune to a film score is like comparing 4Hero to John Coltrane. Different genres with similar techniques, nothing more. The emotional intentions are entirely different in both cases.

I look forward to hearing the tunes from the people who claim to shit on this. Seriously, get it on the site and let's see if you can raise the bar for everybody. Money where your mouth is etc

dnbscene_marc · Post by **dnbscene_marc** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:04 am

Also, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions on this: http://www.dnbscene.com/track/iosys-tainted-sand . This is closer to what I'd call classical composition within a drum&bass/dubstep framework.

tripwire22 · Post by **tripwire22** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:25 pm

ima get up and hear the track then ima put my money where my mouth is and drop a youtube link. I'll admit if I like the song though

tripwire22 · Post by **tripwire22** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:25 pm

well i can easily say him putting them bass patches ruined that track but thats my opinion and im sure thats what people rather hear than what ima link, and i feel like dude sampled alot of his song me and kai def wrote out everything in ours

kaiori breathe · Post by **kaiori breathe** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:33 pm

AllNightDayDream wrote: Hiring a hundred random musicians doesn't mean they all have basic understanding of theory.

the hypothetical situation I gave was given with the assumption that they all had 'basic theory' - I thought that was pretty obvious.

AllNightDayDream wrote: I'd wager that a dozen guys who write/perform jazz or even blues would come out with some decent soundtrack pieces.

Why? I played in blues and jazz bands for years, neither genre is as theoretically complicated as people like to pretend they are. A jazz composer wouldn't necessarily be of a higher standard than any given film score composer or pop composer. You're making an assumption that writing within certain genres requires a stronger level of knowledge which is untrue. Writing effectively, even to a formula, in any genre requires a strong level of knowledge, or at least a really really developed ear and naturally developed ability. There's no reason why a pop composer would have any less ability to write a film score than a jazz composer. Although, as I said previously, to write film scores you really need to be well versed in more than one genre. One genre will not cut it for film scoring.

AllNightDayDream wrote: Although I admittedly went too far in what I said, I just find it funny that of all the pieces to choose, this very formulaic style is considered great film score writing.

Like I said, nothing wrong with writing to a formula.

AllNightDayDream wrote: It's the same rehashed telling of a certain emotion imo.

What's you're point? A piece can only be good if it expresses a new emotion? If a death scene calls for a feeling of mourning you create a feeling of mourning you don't act like a dick and create a song that represents your craving an apple on a delightful Sunday morning in Autumn you experienced three years ago after a heated debate on political theory. It's the same emotion being rehashed because in most films the same emotions are presented, that's not the film scorers fault, or even a problem. There's nothing wrong with saying the same thing again in music.

AllNightDayDream wrote:Really it has little to do with the specific chord changes they choose(which is definitely there). In punk rock for example, the same 4 chords can have endless possibilities to make a track really powerful and memorable. I'll post examples of what I mean...

The same is true of film scores I've heard the same chord sequences voiced in billions of ways. You're making vast ignorant generalizations. I'll admit I'm generalizing at times too, but my generalizations aren't ignorantly shrugging off the work that goes into film scoring and declaring it to be easy. If it's so easy why aren't you writing film scores for a living? Even if it's not what you want to do with your life, since it's so easy you could knock a few out on any given day of the week, make a load of cash and spend it on gear to make the music you want to make. So why aren't you doing it since it's so easy?

AllNightDayDream wrote:@the bold: As for actual writing, HELL NO. This whole paragraph makes no sense. Film is art, saying it's made for the masses would be like saying music is made for the masses.

... ... ... I'll just let you digest what you actually said... Both films and music ARE made for the masses, there's billions in revenue generated every year from the mass production of each. Whether you like it or not, art has been reduced to a formula and sold to the masses. If you don't like that then go live in Alaska and listen to Japanoise while looking at Picassos covered in Damien Hursts shit. While carving the words "Fuck all art that follows a formula or is made for public consumption on mass IT'S ALL TERRIBLE" into your arm so you never forget how great art was before it all went 'cookie cutter'

AllNightDayDream wrote:Yeah, of course there are specific scenes that require a 30 or so second cut of drones purely for atmosphere, but among composers that's childs play. Eh really It's just me bagging on other people's tastes I guess...

... You've just simplified my hypothetical to a child like level to try to discredit it, poor way to make a point. I was saying that given the number of changes in a scene (camera angles, dialogue, emotional movements that you need to be able to write music that fits that, i.e., music that moves through new sections) - again thought my hypothetical was pretty simple and it was obvious what I meant but apparently not since you think I'm talking about making a 30 second drone (coincidentally if your idea of creating an 'atmosphere' is a simple drone I hope you never get to write film scores) not an easy task for most composers with no experience of writing anything other than 3 minute songs.

You're not banging on people's taste your discrediting an entire field of work based on your own personal taste and closed mined views.

tripwire22 wrote:ima get up and hear the track then ima put my money where my mouth is and drop a youtube link. I'll admit if I like the song though

I would write something that shits all over it if I gave a shit about proving myself on forums, unfortunately I don't.

As for that second tune it's again just ok, nothing more.

dnbscene_marc wrote:Haha, Merry Christmas you lot.

You too.

dnbscene_marc wrote:BoC is proper beard-stroking nerd-music, one for the real musos which is why they're so widely beloved by electronic musicians and geeky music journalists, as well as (hate to say it) 20-year-old hipsters.

Coming from the guy who seems to think this track is akin to the coming of a musical jesus just because they have classical influence.... You are as much a victim of pretensions influencing taste as anybody else here you care to point out.

dnbscene_marc wrote:he's not actually using sample cuts. I would have thought that was obvious during the breakdown when you can blatantly hear the beginning of the attack envelope on the violin. That's what impresses me about this guy, he can actually compose something.

Using samples doesn't mean you can't compose. Equally not using them doesn't mean you can compose.

dnbscene_marc wrote:As for all the discussion about film scores, I don't see what that has to do with this tune. Puzzle Factory has used instruments and arrangements that happen to have been used in film scores (as well as big beat, trance and pretty much all of late 90s electronica as I recall), but to compare this tune to a film score is like comparing 4Hero to John Coltrane. Different genres with similar techniques, nothing more. The emotional intentions are entirely different in both cases.

We're discussing film scores not because of his use of the same instrumentation but because of the obvious film score/classical influence. Ergo, It's a valid comparison.

dnbscene_marc wrote: I look forward to hearing the tunes from the people who claim to shit on this. Seriously, get it on the site and let's see if you can raise the bar for everybody. Money where your mouth is etc

If I gave half a crap about proving anything to you I would, sadly I don't and as such I won't. And finally, anybody is welcome to call any piece of music weak if they want to without having to prove they can make something better, it's called criticism.

BOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM HEADSHOT

JemGrover · Post by **JemGrover** » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:41 pm

dnbscene_marc wrote:
BoC is proper beard-stroking nerd-music, one for the real musos which is why they're so widely beloved by electronic musicians and geeky music journalists, as well as (hate to say it) 20-year-old hipsters.

Emotional epic dubstep geniusness!

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