Removing copyrighted material from dedicated sites/P2P, etc?

[__________]

Who's got some suitable advice for us? I'm sure plenty of you have had to deal with this kind of shit.

Some of our Dubliminal releases have cropped up on some filesharing sites. So far I've just been sending emails in an angry tone, which has so far been effective but as the releases start to crop up on more sites, what's the best way to proceed?
I don't mind firing off a few emails every day to Rapidshare, Oron, Megaupload, Hotfile and other sites like that. They seem to get straight on the case of removing copyrighted material without arguing, and I've had success with them so far, the files were removed within hours, but what's the best way to deal with dedicated music piracy websites who can 'claim' ignorance since they 'only' index links to other sites?

I think we're on the right track, but if anybody who's gone through this shit before could offer advice, on here or by PM, it would be gratefully received

[ashley]

If you don't send a proper DMCA notice your email will be ignored.

Theres currently no way to get anything removed from The Pirate Bay, but I've had swift responses from a lot of file sharing sites who removed our files in around 24 hours.

Make sure you sign up to Google Alerts too...

[ashley]

Regarding 'music search engines', they aren't the problem, it's the source you need to find.

[dr h]

Seriously, it's not worth the effort to try and combat it. Once a release is scene released/spread on a popular filesharing network, it's game over. Taking down one rapidshare link just means 3 more will appear in its place. Likewise, DMCA notices to blogs becomes pointless since theres just so many of them. I agree it's a fucking travesty that google indexes these kind of sites at the top of search pages rather than the official site/legal download sites, but that's just the way it is.

It's better to try and convince pirates to want to own your record in the first place rather than fighting a losing battle against the very infrastructure of the internet. You won't win the latter, but you might just get people to legally buy your stuff if you convince them it's something worth owning in the first place.

[ashley]

Seriously, it's not worth the effort to try and combat it. Once a release is scene released/spread on a popular filesharing network, it's game over. Taking down one rapidshare link just means 3 more will appear in its place. Likewise, DMCA notices to blogs becomes pointless since theres just so many of them. I agree it's a fucking travesty that google indexes these kind of sites at the top of search pages rather than the official site/legal download sites, but that's just the way it is.

It's better to try and convince pirates to want to own your record in the first place rather than fighting a losing battle against the very infrastructure of the internet. You won't win the latter, but you might just get people to legally buy your stuff if you convince them it's something worth owning in the first place.

No it's not.

I'd rather a blog be top of Google with broken download links than one with working download links.

[dr h]

Good luck fighting a losing battle, that's all I can say. Time is better spent doing things that will actually make a difference. If someone wants to download something for free, they'll find a way. Always.

[ashley]

Good luck fighting a losing battle, that's all I can say. Time is better spent doing things that will actually make a difference. If someone wants to download something for free, they'll find a way. Always.

Of course, but with that mentality you're going on like piracy is ok because 'everyone else does it'.

If a blog posts my tunes, i'll get them removed.

Might be a labour intensive task, but it's not that hard to copypasta a template into an email with the link to said resource.

Takes 2mins per site, max.

[kion]

Good luck fighting a losing battle, that's all I can say. Time is better spent doing things that will actually make a difference. If someone wants to download something for free, they'll find a way. Always.

Bollocks. These free download links often show up when searching for a track for legitimate purchase. By serving DMCA notices it stops a lot of usually legitimate paying customers being tempted by these links. The DMCA notices are quick and easy to do - and are always acted upon when it comes to the file hosting sites and forums that facilitate the links their links.

I was under the impression p2p sites also 'block' searches for products if they are served DMCA notices?

The flipside to your argument, is if someone wants a track enough, they'll pay for it if they can't download it for free.

[pkay]

quick fyi: Sending an email to a website citing the DMCA does not equate to a DMCA notice.

Here's what I did when I was with Dubsaw. It wasn't 100% effective, I'm sure you can find their material still out there, but it reduced the amount piracy on high traffic sites.

You need to send a cease a desist letter with links to the material you are objecting to, citing the exact file in question, explaining who the copyright holder is, and explaining how this has effected you and your artist negatively. Tell them exactly what you want to do to remedy the situation (removal and removal of all further material).

If that fails you don't email them back. You contact their advertisers, hosts, blogspot, whatever through conventional terms (snail mail, fax, certified mail). Real businesses don't conduct legal matters through email. You need to file your DMCA complain with the good faith blurb and sworn statement included with a physical signature included to the company you are contacting. This needs to be professional looking... letterhead, correct format, spell check, all that shit you learned in school but ignore in your daily life.

Copy that letter and after it's mailed then email back the website and include a scan of the letter you sent. Inform them if the material is removed you will withdraw your DMCA claim against their site.

Sounds like a lot of work but once you've done it once (correctly) you now have templates for your future complaints and all you need to do is change addresses, names, and some copy paste links.

Once you've contacted a site before and had something removed usually they comply with all future emails.

[pkay]

and are always acted upon when it comes to the file hosting sites and forums that facilitate the links their links.

fairly untrue.... the majority of the russian sites will straight forward tell you to fuck off they dont care. That's why you contact their advertisers instead

[Caski]

release i had in august with filthy digital got bought that day n uploaded straight away...sent some messages out n got locked off but a week or so later its all over the place.

piracy is such a hard thing to stop unless you've got a team of people doing a combination of things...its like oceans 11

[kion]

and are always acted upon when it comes to the file hosting sites and forums that facilitate the links their links.

fairly untrue.... the majority of the russian sites will straight forward tell you to fuck off they dont care. That's why you contact their advertisers instead

Ok will rephrase, in my experience they've always been acted upon. Maybe I've just been lucky!

[ashley]

or you can automate the process... being a developer that's what I do, naturally.

"Choose type of DMCA notice to send"

And I've got templates already done for hotfile, mediafire, rapidshare etc

[dr h]

or you can automate the process... being a developer that's what I do, naturally.

"Choose type of DMCA notice to send"

And I've got templates already done for hotfile, mediafire, rapidshare etc

Name one of your records. I guarentee i'll find an mp3 version of it within a minute.

Don't get me wrong, I agree it's a shitty, shitty thing for artists and labels to have to deal with, but as mentioned, many of these sites are run by Russians or people who honestly don't give a fuck about about copyright in the first place. Not only that, in my experience with these kind of things, users intentionally make more mirrors if you remove the original one.

DMCA's and all this legal crap aren't the way forward imo. They won't change anything. Making people WANT to buy music is where labels should prioritise their efforts. As I said, if someone makes an effort not to pay for music in the first place, then no amount of DMCA takedowns are going to stop them. I learnt this a long time ago.

[Intended Malice]

I don't care about copyrights or intellectual property yet I buy all my music. I just used one of those sites to get a digital version of Can't Sleep single that I bought on vinyl, so they do serve a purpose. But can I just tell you as person who has had close ties with 'The Scene' for almost 10 years those 3rd party share sites constitute a very small amount of file sharing, maybe 20% at its peak in 2008 or so, 'piracy' is an often used misnomer as it implies re-distribution of goods or products for a profit; this is not happening in the majority of the case. (Though I do know it happens, we've all seen those dvds with TS' and Screeners.)

Suffice it to say most are aware of torrents but those truly savvy (or leet as they were once known) who want your stuff will have it. That is just the way it goes, all you as the producer/artist/label/affiliate can do is make a good product that will entice said person to purchase it legittlly, if you can't do that effectively and compete amongst others then you have no place doing business in the Market. It is just that simple. Its a cold hardhearted reality but its one you either embrace and adapt or get run over with as you start to deplete resources/time to the detriment of your product.

Oh, and before anyone starts bitching about how I'm just going on about something without knowing, I have had 4 business ventures since I was 11 years old with ~85% of all transactions accounted for and recorded with a 200% average profit margin after profits and losses in all four throughout the years. I think you should realize that when you are dealing with intangible products such as digital music you have to just adsorb the loss--which it really isn't since its likely they never intended to buy your product in the first place--as a cost of doing business and focus on your initial task.

Making people WANT to buy music is where labels should prioritise their efforts.

Well said. Blackbox is the only one taking this initiative, though have yet to implement it and I'm glad to say I had some role in it, however minute, as I gave direct feedback to Thinking about alternatives--thus proving how effective a free-market solution is.

[jon ad]

Just opened up the label's Bandcamp to downloads (lodubs.bandcamp.com), and within hours there are several free download sites at the top of a google search.

Without even getting emotional, and as a retort to the cold hearted free market stance statements above, I would have to say that anyone with any intelligence would not carry on investing in records that will just perpetuate freely so quickly to no benefit of the artist or label. It is just not a sensible way to invest time or effort.

As for "Making people want it", We did this with the last Clubroot, and the hand letterpressed version sold through its 500 quantity rather quick. That would have to be about the limit of physical goods these days. Even "Return to Space" and its quantity is testament to that. And hey, those quantities do not keep a label alive.

I would say it is hopeless, any way you slice it.

[dr h]

Without even getting emotional, and as a retort to the cold hearted free market stance statements above, I would have to say that anyone with any intelligence would not carry on investing in records that will just perpetuate freely so quickly to no benefit of the artist or label. It is just not a sensible way to invest time or effort.

Depends on whether your priority as a label is to make money or to exercise creative demons and put out something decent special for the world to hear. If it's the former, then sadly you're about 20 years too late. If it's the latter, then "anyone with any intelligence" will know that artists make their money through touring/playing live and putting out records is never going to pay the bills, at least for 99% of indie producers/labels. People can still easily make a decent living in music, but the consumer attitude and market has changed. You can either sulk about it and wallow in misery or adapt. Bandcamp is a good start actually, but it isn't just going to magically appear at the top of search engines overnight, especially when other stores/blogs generate far more traffic. Like everything else, you need to be savvy at promotion and direct traffic there. Then it self-perpetuates. Again though, the real value in music comes from people who love it and want to listen to it. Cash ruins everything around me, etc...

As for "Making people want it", We did this with the last Clubroot, and the hand letterpressed version sold through its 500 quantity rather quick. That would have to be about the limit of physical goods these days. Even "Return to Space" and its quantity is testament to that. And hey, those quantities do not keep a label alive.

Selling 500 copies of a CD (which I assume is what that limited Clubroot release was pressed on) is a good achievement in 2011 and probably earned you a tidy profit. Limited/hand made releases by their very nature are meant to be made in small quantities and supplement the standard release, giving something a little special for people who want them. They're meant to be labours of love, not an easy way to make money. Mala wouldn't have included unmarked picture discs in some of his records, if it was all about the money (trust me, they cost a fortune to manufacture)

I would say it is hopeless, any way you slice it.

I disagree. If you start thinking creatively, promote effectively and stop trying to sell records like we did 20 years ago, then you can still put out something decent, pay your artists and make some decent money on the side. However, if you honestly think that running a small dubstep label is going to give you an easy life and pay all your bills in 2011, then no wonder you're pissed. It isn't going to happen and there's a reason people like Kode9 also teach/dj to earn a living.

Whatever happened to making and releasing music because you enjoyed it? Art should never be a comodity, in my opinion.

[apmje]

Blogs got me into Dubstep which has eventually lead me to buying a lot of music.

Just saying.

[pkay]

Without even getting emotional, and as a retort to the cold hearted free market stance statements above, I would have to say that anyone with any intelligence would not carry on investing in records that will just perpetuate freely so quickly to no benefit of the artist or label. It is just not a sensible way to invest time or effort.

Depends on whether your priority as a label is to make money or to exercise creative demons and put out something decent special for the world to hear. If it's the former, then sadly you're about 20 years too late. If it's the latter, then "anyone with any intelligence" will know that artists make their money through touring/playing live and putting out records is never going to pay the bills, at least for 99% of indie producers/labels. People can still easily make a decent living in music, but the consumer attitude and market has changed. You can either sulk about it and wallow in misery or adapt. Bandcamp is a good start actually, but it isn't just going to magically appear at the top of search engines overnight, especially when other stores/blogs generate far more traffic. Like everything else, you need to be savvy at promotion and direct traffic there. Then it self-perpetuates. Again though, the real value in music comes from people who love it and want to listen to it. Cash ruins everything around me, etc...

As for "Making people want it", We did this with the last Clubroot, and the hand letterpressed version sold through its 500 quantity rather quick. That would have to be about the limit of physical goods these days. Even "Return to Space" and its quantity is testament to that. And hey, those quantities do not keep a label alive.

Selling 500 copies of a CD (which I assume is what that limited Clubroot release was pressed on) is a good achievement in 2011 and probably earned you a tidy profit. Limited/hand made releases by their very nature are meant to be made in small quantities and supplement the standard release, giving something a little special for people who want them. They're meant to be labours of love, not an easy way to make money. Mala wouldn't have included unmarked picture discs in some of his records, if it was all about the money (trust me, they cost a fortune to manufacture)

I would say it is hopeless, any way you slice it.

I disagree. If you start thinking creatively, promote effectively and stop trying to sell records like we did 20 years ago, then you can still put out something decent, pay your artists and make some decent money on the side. However, if you honestly think that running a small dubstep label is going to give you an easy life and pay all your bills in 2011, then no wonder you're pissed. It isn't going to happen and there's a reason people like Kode9 also teach/dj to earn a living.

Whatever happened to making and releasing music because you enjoyed it? Art should never be a comodity, in my opinion.

You entirely missed what Jon was saying Dr h. He was speaking of fiscal sustainability and you turned it into a rant about motive and character. No one honestly thinks they're going to pay their rent off record sales in 2011. That doesn't mean there aren't other factors in play.

I'm not sure if you're involved with a label or not as I do not know you personally, but there are a lot of moving parts that can be effected by piracy, especially with labels who are on the less commercial side of things. It may be as simple as an artist being upset and asking you as a label to get the tune removed, or a label with a P&D and your distro not wanting to press the tune because it was leaked and they feel it will effect sales. Those are both very popular scenarios, neither of which have anything to do with the motives of the label owner or their individual opinions on piracy.


I also found it ironic you said

Whatever happened to making and releasing music because you enjoyed it? Art should never be a comodity, in my opinion.

yet in this thread http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157270

you shit all over someone attempting to do exactly that. Release some music for free for nothing more than the enjoyment of the music.

[gnome]

Blogs got me into Dubstep which has eventually lead me to buying a lot of music.

Just saying.

Exactly. People who respect the music buy it. People who don't, don't. You won't stop piracy and you will waste valuable time and effort trying to. Depone had a draft email to send to sites such as rapidshare etc this would save a lot of time if you just fired them guys emails every week.