Drum Levels
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Drum Levels
Yeah search isn't yielding me much on this one. I know a good rule of thumb is to limit drums at around -7 to -10db, but what about the individual levels on the hits of kick and snare (obviously cymbals need to be much quieter). Is just EQing them and letting them peak then limiting the whole channel at around that mark good enough, or do you generally set different limits for the kick and snare, and then an inflated channel limit?
Re: Drum Levels
i dont know what you mean with ''limit'' ...
according to the advice u seem to want to follow... your kick, snare and hats should all play together in something resulting in a -7 db hit on the meter. the rest is variable...
as long as on the mixbus, they hit around that value, its all good.. the rest is creativity and good taste... mixing is athing of feeling... you should FEEL a good balance when you're done... the values you're getting suggested.. are there because they usually make people feel that the sound is natural and more aesthetically correct (unless you seek for the opposite).. so ... trust your taste man.
one thing for sure... meters are peak meters... which means they measure peaks... which means your peaks will vary, depending on your drumline, and thatll depend on your composition... being mathematical, and willingly to admit that -7 is a magical number you should aim for (which its not) your kick and snare should both hit a -7... since they wont play together... (and here again, it might be false)... the peak meter will give a -7 value on the kick, and on the snare... you hit at -7. now if they hit at the same time, its something else...
now the hats might play at the same time then those two.. will they push the peak higher? most likely, but what if there is masking? those things are variable.. and you wont find any reliable strict guidelines about this subject... imo. again : USE YOUR EARS.
Balance is a thing of taste imo. u kinda have to get a feel for it. when it sounds like its balanced, and non distractive/painful, youve done your job. and people underestimate the actual volume faders so much. dont stick anything on it unless you've done that first.
ill reiterate... balance is achieved by LISTENING, pay attention to the way your sounds sustain interest... there are DIFFERENT ways to balance drums, on one beat you might want to make the snare predominant, on other beats, the kick... its all a matter of how YOU want your music to sound.
besides, the peak level won't tell you everything you need to know about dynamics... so use your ears.
in terms of working algorithms.. if i am not mistaken (PLEASE CONFIRM)
- you could either set your sounds at the right volume each sound at a time and hit it good on the stereo bus...
- or you could fuck around until it sounds balanced with little care about db, and then bus them to a ''drum bus'', and set the drum bus to peak around -7, if you believe its the right setting.
same result imo.
my advice :
-choose if you want to set your balance in a relative or absolute fashion.. i prefer to do it from the start...
-set it, and be sure about it...
-read the moneyshot thread, which is now stickied.
it might sound empty, as a post, but it is not... your question is hard to answer to... as there is no absolute answer to it imo.
Now for the word limit :
are you talking about an actual limiter?!?! the guidelines that are generally given about peaks require no processing, besides settting the volume fader so that the meter reads what you want it to read...
anyone talking about limiting each and every sound, would give you a horrible advice, especially with drums.
according to the advice u seem to want to follow... your kick, snare and hats should all play together in something resulting in a -7 db hit on the meter. the rest is variable...
as long as on the mixbus, they hit around that value, its all good.. the rest is creativity and good taste... mixing is athing of feeling... you should FEEL a good balance when you're done... the values you're getting suggested.. are there because they usually make people feel that the sound is natural and more aesthetically correct (unless you seek for the opposite).. so ... trust your taste man.
one thing for sure... meters are peak meters... which means they measure peaks... which means your peaks will vary, depending on your drumline, and thatll depend on your composition... being mathematical, and willingly to admit that -7 is a magical number you should aim for (which its not) your kick and snare should both hit a -7... since they wont play together... (and here again, it might be false)... the peak meter will give a -7 value on the kick, and on the snare... you hit at -7. now if they hit at the same time, its something else...
now the hats might play at the same time then those two.. will they push the peak higher? most likely, but what if there is masking? those things are variable.. and you wont find any reliable strict guidelines about this subject... imo. again : USE YOUR EARS.
Balance is a thing of taste imo. u kinda have to get a feel for it. when it sounds like its balanced, and non distractive/painful, youve done your job. and people underestimate the actual volume faders so much. dont stick anything on it unless you've done that first.
ill reiterate... balance is achieved by LISTENING, pay attention to the way your sounds sustain interest... there are DIFFERENT ways to balance drums, on one beat you might want to make the snare predominant, on other beats, the kick... its all a matter of how YOU want your music to sound.
besides, the peak level won't tell you everything you need to know about dynamics... so use your ears.
in terms of working algorithms.. if i am not mistaken (PLEASE CONFIRM)
- you could either set your sounds at the right volume each sound at a time and hit it good on the stereo bus...
- or you could fuck around until it sounds balanced with little care about db, and then bus them to a ''drum bus'', and set the drum bus to peak around -7, if you believe its the right setting.
same result imo.
my advice :
-choose if you want to set your balance in a relative or absolute fashion.. i prefer to do it from the start...
-set it, and be sure about it...
-read the moneyshot thread, which is now stickied.
it might sound empty, as a post, but it is not... your question is hard to answer to... as there is no absolute answer to it imo.
Now for the word limit :
are you talking about an actual limiter?!?! the guidelines that are generally given about peaks require no processing, besides settting the volume fader so that the meter reads what you want it to read...
anyone talking about limiting each and every sound, would give you a horrible advice, especially with drums.
Sharmaji wrote:2011: the year of the calloused-from-overuse facepalm
Re: Drum Levels
I've been processing my drums similar to the procedure in Reso's Masterclass (loudness wars for sure). Spanning then EQing, Transient Shaping, Compressing, Transient Shaping again, Add-limiting (bumping the source up as loud as it will go without clipping or distorting) then finishing the limiting/compressing with Vintage Warmer2, or using the Drive limiting of the Transient Shaper (or some combination of the two based on what I think sounds better ). I'm getting fantastic results as far as the punch and sound I want of my drums and how they cut through the mix but as Reso says the waveform ends up being a "big bloody square" so I usually limit (yes using limiting of one form or another) the kick and snare at -7 to -12 DB as I find it a good place to start on mixdown. What I wonder about this kind of processing is where it's best to be limiting, on the sound itself, on the overall drum channel, or both
Re: Drum Levels
i love that masterclass.
hwv. i think reso is touching on the subject of SOUND DESIGN more then balance when he mangles with that.
he shapes the sounds and modifies them, hes not trying to mix at that stage... altho he seems to mix alongside the road...
yes, adding whatever effect on a drum, can be cool, as sound design.
hwv. i think reso is touching on the subject of SOUND DESIGN more then balance when he mangles with that.
he shapes the sounds and modifies them, hes not trying to mix at that stage... altho he seems to mix alongside the road...
yes, adding whatever effect on a drum, can be cool, as sound design.
Sharmaji wrote:2011: the year of the calloused-from-overuse facepalm
Re: Drum Levels
Ldizzy wrote:settting the volume fader so that the meter reads what you want it to read...

lol na but for real, this is the way. if you prefer hard limiting your kick and snare so they're "big bloody squares" and have an RMS thats nearly equal to their peak, then go ahead, but imo drums are more effective when they aren't squashed to bits.
But furthermore, i don't recommend leveling them on the drums bus. Tbh i don't advocate busing your drums at all, most of the time. But if/when you do, use bus compression that is gentle. 3:1 at most. not limited. I would instead limit each drum individually, but rather softly.
Soundcloud
SOME SONGS AND TUNES :|
SOME SONGS AND TUNES :|
Re: Drum Levels
It's hard to limit the drums softly in this kind of process since the whole point is making them sound about 10x as loud and punchy without increasing the output DB. In my before and after processing A-Bing (just checking processed vs. unprocessed) the original drums played sound almost infinitely quieter and flatter at the same volume as the processed which sound amazingly more loud and punchy. But if I removed the Drive limiting on the Shaper, or the brick wall on the Vintage Warmer, etc, I don't even want to know how loud they would end up. I'm guessing I'd be buying new speakers.
Re: Drum Levels
is the vintage warmer on the bus?
its definitely effective to hard limit the drums when you want them to really smack through. imo, i would just make sure you do it to each drum individually, and on the bus, only apply mild compression. Vintage warmer is great for this too. I just would stay away from hard limit or really any heavy processing on the bus. It would undo all the work you did to the individual channels, more or less.
to be fair though i never saw the master class vid. so i dunno.
its definitely effective to hard limit the drums when you want them to really smack through. imo, i would just make sure you do it to each drum individually, and on the bus, only apply mild compression. Vintage warmer is great for this too. I just would stay away from hard limit or really any heavy processing on the bus. It would undo all the work you did to the individual channels, more or less.
to be fair though i never saw the master class vid. so i dunno.
Soundcloud
SOME SONGS AND TUNES :|
SOME SONGS AND TUNES :|
Re: Drum Levels
Yes in the drums I'm working on now actually I'm using the Transient Shapers drive as my limiter and Vintage Warmer on my bus just squeezing out less then a DB with "phat" on for some minor warming. All the heavy processing is taking place on the sounds themselves. I guess the tricky part is I'm trying to mix down as I go, and I guess it's up to my ears to decide where the levels should be at.
Re: Drum Levels
Were you A-Bing them at the same perceived volume? Because our ears always perceive louder things as fatter, fuller or whatever you wanna call it, and the quieter sound as flatter and dullerKombatant wrote:In my before and after processing A-Bing (just checking processed vs. unprocessed) the original drums played sound almost infinitely quieter and flatter at the same volume as the processed which sound amazingly more loud and punchy.

Re: Drum Levels
Yes, I actually even a-b'd my processed ones at -10db and the unprocessed at -7db, yet the processed still sound much much louder and punchier. At equal db levels there is just no comparison.
Re: Drum Levels
no hatred brother... it seems like you have a couple knowledge gaps from what i can read (i have some too)
i suggest a little more reading on the subject of dynamics and compression. and peaks/dynamic range.
besides, i think parallel compression/limiting results in better-preserved dynamics, comparable peak levels, and significantly increased rms levels then limiting each sound...
i suggest a little more reading on the subject of dynamics and compression. and peaks/dynamic range.
besides, i think parallel compression/limiting results in better-preserved dynamics, comparable peak levels, and significantly increased rms levels then limiting each sound...
Sharmaji wrote:2011: the year of the calloused-from-overuse facepalm
Re: Drum Levels
as for what you've just said about a-b ing... problem is the rms-ly higher drums will fill your track more.. and leave less space for the rest...
judging sonic qualities of isolated sounds can be fooling, everything depends on how they will work in a full mix context.
judging sonic qualities of isolated sounds can be fooling, everything depends on how they will work in a full mix context.
Sharmaji wrote:2011: the year of the calloused-from-overuse facepalm
Re: Drum Levels
I'll look into this more, thank you.Ldizzy wrote:no hatred brother... it seems like you have a couple knowledge gaps from what i can read (i have some too)
i suggest a little more reading on the subject of dynamics and compression. and peaks/dynamic range.
besides, i think parallel compression/limiting results in better-preserved dynamics, comparable peak levels, and significantly increased rms levels then limiting each sound...
Re: Drum Levels
compress so it hits about -10dB then try and get as much perceived loudness as possible without that too limited "bulgy" sound almost like the kick or snare is pumping out of the speaker when it shouldn't be. that is just my rule, of which I apply to all my tracks. i do EQ as well. i don't really see a set rule on whether you should set your kick at a certain level that is just my preferred way on dubstep.Kombatant wrote:Yeah search isn't yielding me much on this one. I know a good rule of thumb is to limit drums at around -7 to -10db, but what about the individual levels on the hits of kick and snare (obviously cymbals need to be much quieter). Is just EQing them and letting them peak then limiting the whole channel at around that mark good enough, or do you generally set different limits for the kick and snare, and then an inflated channel limit?
Re: Drum Levels
thanks for ur considerate posts man. u show great involvement in your own learning process.. i think its a heck of a strenght!
im glad ull put effort into it
im also glad uve posted some examples..
and yes i think the effect you're after is remotely similar to parallel compression, you should give it a try.
now here's a fun thing :
i recommend this plugin if u dont already have it, its a cool meter :
http://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htm
its a lot more precise and complete then most of the stock meters on ur typical daw... + its free.
im glad ull put effort into it
im also glad uve posted some examples..
and yes i think the effect you're after is remotely similar to parallel compression, you should give it a try.
now here's a fun thing :
yes, in terms of peak, they're probably a lot louder in terms of RMS loudness.. (and RMS is a lot more correlated to the perception of loudness). try to have a proper rms reading of the valueKombatant wrote: The unprocessed drums are .5 DB louder then the processed.
i recommend this plugin if u dont already have it, its a cool meter :
http://www.sonalksis.com/freeg.htm
its a lot more precise and complete then most of the stock meters on ur typical daw... + its free.
Sharmaji wrote:2011: the year of the calloused-from-overuse facepalm
Re: Drum Levels
is limiting really necessary, i only compress and eq my drums and if its too loud i just lower the volume on the channel.

Re: Drum Levels
theres such a big hype around compression and limiting... the more i listen to stuff, the less i percieve a perk in that.
if u produce pumping music, i get it...
but honestly, a little saturation, cleaver sample selection, deep patterns and proper arrangements, eq and effects will get you there more then comp on the mixbus (altho it might help).
it can help. it is NOT mandatory.
try it : a/b your drum sounds at equal levels... do it... its revealing to an extend you just wouldnt imagine possible if youre not used to listen microdynamics processing
if u produce pumping music, i get it...
but honestly, a little saturation, cleaver sample selection, deep patterns and proper arrangements, eq and effects will get you there more then comp on the mixbus (altho it might help).
it can help. it is NOT mandatory.
try it : a/b your drum sounds at equal levels... do it... its revealing to an extend you just wouldnt imagine possible if youre not used to listen microdynamics processing
Sharmaji wrote:2011: the year of the calloused-from-overuse facepalm
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