The morals of sampling

[GothamHero]

Some artists when a scene give sampling a bad name by lifting whole passages from tunes and passing themselves off as their own, I now feel bad for sampling hits and stabs off old Disco and Funk records. Sampling was never moral, but some artists just made it work; Daft Punk being one of those artists, but they don't make music for fame and fortune, hence their efforts to keep their face off TV.

What are your two cents?



(EDIT - This thread OP has been amended slightly to remove some hating, but we have decided to reopen the thread as discussion of the morals associated with sampling. Wub & Ledge)

[-[2]DAY_-]

never feel bad for sampling hits and stabs off old disco and funk records.
That is what god intended for you.
That's pretty much all my $.02


edit: sampling in general was never an unethical practice. shitty people with blackened hearts and rotting souls have the potential for immoral and unethical conduct within the scope of any practice. the nature of sampling isn't like that, tho....
so that's my 2p

[hutyluty]

1. Sampling- all my tunes are about 90% samples but i bet you couldnt find a single source of them

its all about knowing when youve gone too far

2. people embarassing the good name of dubstep- well theres lots of shit tunes out there but i just avoid it by never listening to anyof them (still never listened to a skrillex track! ) but yeah im surprised people havent got bored of them yet, only a matter of time

[Jacob15728]

I agree. I always try to avoid sampling as much as possible. If it was common practice, then any idiot could become the next Skrillex.

[hutyluty]

theres nothing wrong with sampling asling as its done creatively! sampling opens up far more possibilities than synthesis imo

[Dystinkt]

depends on your knowledge of synthesis

[GothamHero]

theres nothing wrong with sampling asling as its done creatively! sampling opens up far more possibilities than synthesis imo

Yeah, no. If you think the quicker option is the better option, then you won't last long as a musician (not you personally, just the mindset of people like Cyrex). I understand if you're listening to an 90s House track and you hear a great riser or bassline, you instantly have an idea how to incorporate that into your own tracks, maybe not even as the main focal point, and a way to add your own personality into it. This is artistic. Wanting to imitate someone else by sampling their basslines, without altering it in any way, shape or form, is not really artistic. 'Why try to recreate it when you can sample it?', is not a positive mindset to be at.

While there is no right or wrong way of sampling, nothing I say here is law and people have their own views on sampling and music, but I think the morality of it all has changed over the years. We sample drums, vocals, and other minute sounds, and that's all well and good; however, there are people who record their own vocals and make their own drum elements on synthesis, or live recordings, and I think they are the ones who will succeed. I hope anyway, Cyrex seems pretty popular.

No point crying about it, but it's worth a discussion as to where the line is drawn in regards to over-sampled material.

[-[2]DAY_-]

If [sampling] was common practice, then any idiot could become the next Skrillex.

sampling is common practice, and it doesn't make success come any easier.

Kinda silly how many discussions lately about sampling, err, ok or not?

It's not something that society or our subculture needs to come to a consensus on. Its a cornerstone of production, from early disco house & hip hop right through to the latest Electronic, hip hop and dance as well as many other styles n genres
Individually, of course, we all make our own judgements of its use, hopefully on a case to case basis and not with sweeping generalizations on what's ethical/respectable.... and we can make our own personal decisions about whether or not to employ the technique.

It just can't be put into a box. "Doing it creatively" is a nice idea, but tbh doesn't really say much. Everything in production ought to be "done creatively". Sometimes you get an idea for a track from a sample source. Sometimes you stumble across the perfect vocal clipping to finalize something you'd been working on.... sometimes you go digging for breaks. Sometimes someone asks you to do a bootleg. Maybe you can imagine this great Ella Fitzgerald vocal pitched up as a hook to a hip hop joint, so you build a beat around it and nick the parts u want.
Maybe all you want to do is speed up a Rick James track by 4bpm and do a minor edit to turn it into something new for your DJ sets. (an "edit", not a "remix")

Maybe you just need some donk from a dancehall track to keep in your library.


Point being, there's all that and everywhere in between and also loads of other ways of doing it (micro sampling, wavecycles, etc) and so much you can do to it...... there's just no point in discussing "right"-ness or "wrong"-ness across the board. It's definitely a case-by-case judgement to draw.

[-[2]DAY_-]

If you think the quicker option is the better option, then you won't last long as a musician [. . .] make their own drum elements on synthesis, or live recordings, and I think they are the ones who will succeed.

this sweeping generalization is also incorrect, just because you can't paint it with a broad stroke like that. Sometimes this is correct, and other times the quickest way IS the best way. Especially when you're speaking of success. Synthing your own drums has nothing to do with success.
How it sounds and how it's promoted and when it drops have to do with success. People don't care what you did, they care how it sounds. If it sounds too much like something else, you've crossed a line, whether you synthed it, recorded it or sampled it.

Often times, there's no time to waste so the quickest route is the only chance at success.

[wormcode]

theres nothing wrong with sampling asling as its done creatively! sampling opens up far more possibilities than synthesis imo

Yeah, no. If you think the quicker option is the better option, then you won't last long as a musician (not you personally, just the mindset of people like Cyrex). I understand if you're listening to an 90s House track and you hear a great riser or bassline, you instantly have an idea how to incorporate that into your own tracks, maybe not even as the main focal point, and a way to add your own personality into it. This is artistic. Wanting to imitate someone else by sampling their basslines, without altering it in any way, shape or form, is not really artistic. 'Why try to recreate it when you can sample it?', is not a positive mindset to be at.

While there is no right or wrong way of sampling, nothing I say here is law and people have their own views on sampling and music, but I think the morality of it all has changed over the years. We sample drums, vocals, and other minute sounds, and that's all well and good; however, there are people who record their own vocals and make their own drum elements on synthesis, or live recordings, and I think they are the ones who will succeed. I hope anyway, Cyrex seems pretty popular.

No point crying about it, but it's worth a discussion as to where the line is drawn in regards to over-sampled material.

I agree with what you're getting at, but just because someone recorded their own vocals or drums doesn't mean they will succeed at anything because they could still be bad ideas that sound shit.

Reminds me of this quote:
(from this thread, probably one of the best sampling ethics discussions around: http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?t=701409)

Here's my thing: There's no point spending months trying to make the perfect Pendulum snare or Noisia bass if you could've just sampled them. It's only worth going the long route if you intend to do something truly original.

Aphex Twin doesn't build his own gear and write his own software so he can recreate Boards of Canada pads or Squarepusher breaks; he does it purely to explore his own sound. (Back with the Powerpill EP and Autechre's Cavity Job, ALL the drums were lifted off other Hardcore records. Start releasing records as soon as possible - preferably BEFORE you know too much about engineering.)

Most D&B I hear on Myspace is obsessively hand crafted and engineered, but sounds so generic, you could've just lifted a break off a BSE record and a bass off a sample pack. And if you had done that, you'd have a LOT more time, energy and perspective to actually do something interesting with the ideas you're throwing together.

I think a shining example of this is Polar. At his best he's one of the most original and interesting producers the scene's produced. He doesn't waste time recreating what other people have done; he'll lift drum hits straight off other D&B records - they need minimal engineering (a touch of EQ) - so he simply gives himself time and space to focus on the bits that matter.

The stock parts are all there. When you're spending hours/weeks/months obsessively EQing snares and recataloging samples, you give yourself very little time to focus on the bits that matter or to develop as a musician/producer.

[-[2]DAY_-]

yeah and how about just writing a song and playing the drum part on a ludwig kit that lives in the studio
The kit's probably on loads of records, and probably mixed the same too. Maybe even playing similar beats and fills at a similar tempo.
But no one cares... because they're listening to/hearing the SONG. not the snare.

Just food for thought. The mention of "stock parts", engineering, makes me feel like we're talking about building a car. churning out tracks for DJ fodder isn't entirely unlike that, either.... but i wouldn't worry about what's under the hood, as much as where we're driving it..
notes, melodies, basslines progression . Not what synth or sample it came from.

[hutyluty]

wormcode/warren lomas- this is what i was getting at in regards to sampling opening up more possibilities. Sure with synthesis you can create truly original sounds and its great fun working with (though i would argue its more fun to play around with samples, reversing, pitching, chopping, stretching and adding effects, making something new and original out of te sample), but if youre looking at it to create a stock noise then youre better off sampling, then having more time to use that sound to greater effect in a beter tune as a result.

[ChadDub]

nevermind.

[ChadDub]

Man I hate how brostep sounds so good in the intro but as soon as the drop hits they just fuck it all up...

[wub]

(from this thread, probably one of the best sampling ethics discussions around: http://www.dogsonacid.com/showthread.php?t=701409)

This and the BMT list of sampling guidelines are two massive influences on how I view production. Biggups for linking, have just loved reading through it all again.

[hudson]

<3 sampling

[Atac]

Didn't read most of this thread but I think sampling is awesome.

Sample something and make it your own, whether that means resampling it into something completely different or just throwing it in dry to accent your tune.

I think in this case it is wrong because this type of music is generally based around these basslines. Brostep producers who spend hours on sound design obviously would dislike it if someone ripped off those sounds.

On the other side though, if it's something like a hat or a rim shot, then it's usually no big deal. Nobody's making a ton of money off of a hi hat.

I always thought the line between "moral" and "immoral" sampling was obvious?

[FuzionDubstep]

sampling isn't better than synthesis, if you know how to make a sound then make it, your not going to get known (I'm guessing that's the aim) by sampling you need to find your own style, fair enough sampling in general is undoubtedly a good thing, whether its sampling vocals or whatever I can't say anything wrong with that.

But sampling other people's sounds is just wrong I said it before and some people didn't like it. At the time you think whatever you're doing is right otherwise you wouldn't do it, its like a few months ago I thought some things were good in production but now I laugh at thinking that.. But maybe sampling one synth un-noticeably isn't bad at all, its only when people know you've sampled when people will be quick to judge. But fair enough that's my opinion it clearly doesn't speak for everyone so enjoy sampling!

[Heartless]

I always thought the line between "moral" and "immoral" sampling was obvious?

You'd think, but then you look at the amount of people supporting Girl Talk..

[-[2]DAY_-]

i don't see anything wrong with his performance gig, since people want to hear it. But if he sells records, then yeah. Very wrong.

Myself, i can't stand Girl Talk but people are mad for him. I think its fucking stupid.