A look at piracy and this forum's outlook on it.

[D3ATHSTEP]

Exactly as the title suggests, I'd like to call to attention this particular forum's view on piracy and have a mature, constructive discussion as to why it's generally frowned upon by most of you fine people.

Before I even get into defending piracy directly, allow me to call to attention a glaringly-obvious loophole in the entire forum's piracy arguement: The thread about getting into dubstep that's stickied. It's fantastic that you guys have provided a single thread for some of the fans just getting into dubstep to take a look at and try to learn about/understand the roots of this wonderful and diverse genre of music. However, this is where the line between what is and isn't considered piracy is blurred. Allow me to explain why your entire outlook in piracy hypocritical:

You have a ton of youtube links posted in that thread. Now sure, they're not going to match the quality of something like a Beatport download, so they're not by any means ideal for a live DJ set, but every time you link someone a song on youtube, be it in a thread or in your own free time over Facebook, you're allowing them to listen to an artists music, that they worked hard on. for FREE.

That's all fine and dandy, and I actually support piracy to an extent, but why would those same people THEN turn around and claim it isn't all right to steal other things in a similar fashion? You're all aware of the fact that there is a way to download 1080p youtube files as WAV files, I presume? Someone help me understand why everyone here is so against piracy. Is it because you're all struggling musicians? I'm a musician too, but you're not going to get exposure by charging people money for something that isn't popular yet. You have to let your material "leak" to gain exposure.

As for people who just want to listen to music or download an extremely expensive software program for free: is it not their right? What if there's some fifteen or sixteen year old kid out there whose dream is to become a producer? Should he be denied the right to gain the materials necessary in order to do so? If someone wants to learn guitar, you could drop a hundred bucks on a guitar + amp combo at Guitar Center, or find a fantastic deal on eBay. Should a struggling, passionate artist who can't find a job in today's terrible economy(at least in the U.S.) be FORCED to simply not pursue their dream? What if someone wants to listen to music? Should they truly pay sixteen dollars for a CD that they're not even sure they'll like? So with that logic, anyone who doesn't have a job isn't allowed to listen to any music other than what's played on the radio?

If you came into this thread with an open and respectful attitude and you still managed to retain it throughout this thread, then good on you and I appreciate that. Leave your thoughts/comments below and help me understand why some people feel like piracy is this terrible, shameful sin. Once again, please try to keep this discussion civilized. That means no insulting others over their difference of opinion.

[Osario]

You're all aware of the fact that there is a way to download 1080p youtube files as WAV files, I presume?

sorry what? there are youtube downloaders, but even the best quality they can output is pretty poor, as even 1080p videos have a max bitrate of 152 kbps in AAC and the transcoding process to download it degrades the output

[D3ATHSTEP]

You're all aware of the fact that there is a way to download 1080p youtube files as WAV files, I presume?

sorry what? there are youtube downloaders, but even the best quality they can output is pretty poor, as even 1080p videos have a max bitrate of 152 kbps in AAC and the transcoding process to download it degrades the output

I also said "Now sure, they're not going to match the quality of something like a Beatport download, so they're not by any means ideal for a live DJ set, but every time you link someone a song on youtube, be it in a thread or in your own free time over Facebook, you're allowing them to listen to an artists music, that they worked hard on. for FREE."

[subearache]

http://www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php? ... ne_the_law Read This.

Just because I'm really bored.


This is from the Recording Industy Association of America. That should be all you need to know to answer your questions.

[Osario]

point, too early in the morning most of the tracks hosted on there are done so without the artists consent and the unloaders normally make a little bit of money from the ads on the side, which is a pretty poor state of affairs if you ask me. I'm surprised more labels don't go down the z-audio route and take them down

[collige]

http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.p ... =backspace

This thread covered the issue pretty well.

[pete_bubonic]

You know what irritates me more than anything from a label owner's perspective, is people thinking that piracy either 1. raises the profile of the releases or that 2. rippers and pirates have an entitlement to do so.

These kids who run youtube channels dedicated posting rips of tunes (a lot which are unreleased as yet so you know they pirated them in the first place) and then claim they're promoting the music. I can't believe people can really be that blinkered. Never mentioning the label, never mentioning where to buy it, how to book the artist in question let alone that they decentralise the amount of views that the label will get for any particular song, thus drastically reducing the amount of income and exposure a label can generate from their own youtube channels.

So many rippers love to wander round in this bullshit imaginary economy where they don't consider the costs involved in putting a release together. Initial advance (to get the artist something from the go), artwork, mastering, production, promotion, these things do not come for free. And that before we even get to the time spent by the artist honing their skills, crafting their sound, YEARS spent on getting to somewhere they're finally happy to have a release with a label that they look up to only to have some self entitled PRICK rip it and use it to promote their own blog or cunty youtube channel.

As for the introduction thread, we always encourage people to post official videos and actively try to clamp down on dickhead 'promotional' channels and blogs. But simple fact is, you have to be realistic and there's far too many out there to police. You can be damn sure though, I'm sending emails out on the regular getting blogs and youtube channels shut down if I see Soul Motive stuff out there. There's no excuse or justification for it short of the label not having done the job properly in the first place.

[D3ATHSTEP]

You know what irritates me more than anything from a label owner's perspective, is people thinking that piracy either 1. raises the profile of the releases or that 2. rippers and pirates have an entitlement to do so.

These kids who run youtube channels dedicated posting rips of tunes (a lot which are unreleased as yet so you know they pirated them in the first place) and then claim they're promoting the music. I can't believe people can really be that blinkered. Never mentioning the label, never mentioning where to buy it, how to book the artist in question let alone that they decentralise the amount of views that the label will get for any particular song, thus drastically reducing the amount of income and exposure a label can generate from their own youtube channels.

So many rippers love to wander round in this bullshit imaginary economy where they don't consider the costs involved in putting a release together. Initial advance (to get the artist something from the go), artwork, mastering, production, promotion, these things do not come for free. And that before we even get to the time spent by the artist honing their skills, crafting their sound, YEARS spent on getting to somewhere they're finally happy to have a release with a label that they look up to only to have some self entitled PRICK rip it and use it to promote their own blog or cunty youtube channel.

As for the introduction thread, we always encourage people to post official videos and actively try to clamp down on dickhead 'promotional' channels and blogs. But simple fact is, you have to be realistic and there's far too many out there to police. You can be damn sure though, I'm sending emails out on the regular getting blogs and youtube channels shut down if I see Soul Motive stuff out there. There's no excuse or justification for it short of the label not having done the job properly in the first place.

I agree with everything you said, it IS a shame that all the time/effort of the musicians and those they work with suffer so dramatically over piracy. I'm thinking that the new way to go would be to just learn to do everything yourself; maybe even not worry so much about artwork or anything for a proper release. Post some high-quality audio up on mediafire or something and post links to it in youtube videos in your own channel, then let people download it for free. In this day and age, the real money would most likely come from live performances and potential collaborations with big names if you're established enough to get recognized. I'm strongly considering going this route with my own material when the time is right. Artists are going to have to start adapting to the new era of music distribution and realize that this we're not in the 80's any more. The age of making multi-platinum hair metal records and blowing the profit on cocaine is gone. It's time for artists/labels to step up and get creative with their advertising/distribution.

[joeki]

End of story really.

[Sexual_Chocolate]

These kids who run youtube channels dedicated posting rips of tunes (a lot which are unreleased as yet so you know they pirated them in the first place) and then claim they're promoting the music. I can't believe people can really be that blinkered. Never mentioning the label, never mentioning where to buy it, how to book the artist in question let alone that they decentralise the amount of views that the label will get for any particular song, thus drastically reducing the amount of income and exposure a label can generate from their own youtube channels.

dunno whether this is just me, but 9/10 videos i see on yt generally have a link saying where to purchase it... or atleast the release/cat number & label its from

and if its unreleased 9/10 it will have a host talking over it saying its forthcoming on so and so label...

maybe its just the type of music i listen to...

[robbiej]

so why dont I just got steal a car off a lot?. why should I be denied a nice brand new car?, I might not even like that car, why should I have to pay for it? i used to think like this, but realized eventually there is no other logical conclusion to reach other than it is stealing. if someone wants to learn guitar and doesnt have a job, why should they be denied their dream, they should be able to walk in guitar centre and take whatever they want, right?

so frankly, if youre downloading artists songs for free w/o their permission you are stealing.

as for youtube, it is absolutely piracy. 99% is a giant copyright violation. they just make it hard as hell for people to get their material off. imo it is a bit of a double standard for the forum. those links should be to sites where they can listen to a preview and purchase it, (if they still can) not to youtube.

just my 2 cents

steal (stiːl) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— vb , steals , stealing , stole , stolen
1. to take (something) from someone, etc without permission or unlawfully, esp in a secret manner
2. ( tr ) to obtain surreptitiously

[pete_bubonic]

I agree whole heartedly (deathstep) and there's a few artists that are doing that right now, but there's a couple of problems with that model.

1. There tends to be a disconnect between the business savvy and promotionally aware label owners (not implying I'm business savvy!) and the creative producer. Not always but often.

2. I don't want my favourite artists to have to worry about and waste time with admin, accounts and alike. I want them to make the best music they can.

3. It's hard to garner anywhere near the amount of media exposure a label can get (established links, budget for promotion, physical distribution) as a solo artist. 'Important' scene magazines like Fact, Pitchfork just won't touch new unheard artists without some kind of promotion or distro behind them. And as you say, release money is nothing compared to gig money, and exposure = gigs.

4. What of the producers who don't want to perform, who don't want to be on a stage, how many possible Burial's have we missed because they can't financially support themselves from not wanting to do shows? Burial was making 100% income via release, syncing and licencing. What could an unknown, non-label supported, studio producer hope to achieve?

5. No one, bar maybe Skrillex, Magnetic Man/Skrenga is making that cocaine money anymore. But no-one expects it, what your average smalltime underground producer do expect is to make a pitiful 14-17k a year wage that they can JUST about pay rent on (from gigs mainly too!). And I just can't see how pirates can't take that into consideration when they gleefully post up years of other people's efforts.

[pete_bubonic]

These kids who run youtube channels dedicated posting rips of tunes (a lot which are unreleased as yet so you know they pirated them in the first place) and then claim they're promoting the music. I can't believe people can really be that blinkered. Never mentioning the label, never mentioning where to buy it, how to book the artist in question let alone that they decentralise the amount of views that the label will get for any particular song, thus drastically reducing the amount of income and exposure a label can generate from their own youtube channels.

dunno whether this is just me, but 9/10 videos i see on yt generally have a link saying where to purchase it... or atleast the release/cat number & label its from

and if its unreleased 9/10 it will have a host talking over it saying its forthcoming on so and so label...

maybe its just the type of music i listen to...

I can post MANY, probably the majority that do not, but I won't for obvious reasons. But beyond that where's the encouragement to go find it, I'm not blind to the fact we live in an age of convenience and apathy. If the tune is there to stream or even download for free with no effort, what's to encourage the user to follow up and even spend a little money?

but you're ignoring the fact that there is a strong chance (and not all labels do this, but this is a change in the industry happening currently) that the label have their own youtube channel. That they could actually generate income and pay the artists stream money if their views weren't spread out over the 15 so called 'promotional' channels. I know there's exceptions to every rule and it's not black and white as I am making out. but if people were really up for PROMOTION, they'd start blogs using videos from the labels themselves, they'd do articles and reviews and contribute towards the artists career, not post a shit picture with the ripped audio from a release and sod all info.

[collige]

the label not having done the job properly in the first place.

I think this is really the root of all this. The vast, vast majority of dubstep labels have no official representation on youtube, so the fans took it upon themselves to do it.

A better question is why not form partnerships or work with other labels to create a centralized channel with official uploads? I think the huge success of UKF has shown that a channel showcasing material from several labels can be an amazing promotional tool.

I think it's fair to say that without youtube uploads, dubstep as a genre would be nowhere near as successful as it is today. Imagine if every single youtube upload of a track disappeared: People go on about how great stuff like Goat Stare or is, but how are people gonna hear it if the tune is vinyl-only, sold out everywhere and may or may not be owned and getting plays from local DJs?

[pete_bubonic]

the label not having done the job properly in the first place.

I think this is really the root of all this. The vast, vast majority of dubstep labels have no official representation on youtube, so the fans took it upon themselves to do it.

A better question is why not form partnerships or work with other labels to create a centralized channel with official uploads? I think the huge success of UKF has shown that a channel showcasing material from several labels can be an amazing promotional tool.

I think it's fair to say that without youtube uploads, dubstep as a genre would be nowhere near as successful as it is today. Imagine if every single youtube upload of a track disappeared: People go on about how great stuff like Goat Stare or is, but how are people gonna hear it if the tune is vinyl-only, sold out everywhere and may or may not be owned and getting plays from local DJs?

Oddly enough, this is something I'm actively working on.

[Pedro Sánchez]

No one, bar maybe Skrillex, Magnetic Man/Skrenga is making that cocaine money anymore.

I watched the Artwork Redbull lecture and I'm sure he was saying he doesn't know how anyone is making money from solely making music these days or words to that effect. Piracy is not gonna stop now, a generation has grown up with, as they *see it, free de-valued media and add that in with the fact anyone with a PC and an internet connection can make 'loud' tunes, I don't see it getting back to stability ever again. The sad thing is also, all us in this thread have illegally acquired tunes on our hard drives, be it big label releases or underground vinyl rips. You wanna make money from music these days? learn how to write music software and idevice apps.

[pete_bubonic]

I have committed many crimes in my past and I'm no saint when it comes to modern media, I stream tv shows from the states and alike. But every single piece of music I own whether it be the thousands of vinyl, mp3, wav, aiff, whatever, is legally purchased or given to me directly.

I think some semblance of stability can be retained, everything evolves and progresses, it's up to the industry to find the right business model and educate (not punish ala the RIAA) their potential customers.

[D3ATHSTEP]

so why dont I just got steal a car off a lot?. why should I be denied a nice brand new car?, I might not even like that car, why should I have to pay for it? i used to think like this, but realized eventually there is no other logical conclusion to reach other than it is stealing. if someone wants to learn guitar and doesnt have a job, why should they be denied their dream, they should be able to walk in guitar centre and take whatever they want, right?

so frankly, if youre downloading artists songs for free w/o their permission you are stealing.

as for youtube, it is absolutely piracy. 99% is a giant copyright violation. they just make it hard as hell for people to get their material off. imo it is a bit of a double standard for the forum. those links should be to sites where they can listen to a preview and purchase it, (if they still can) not to youtube.

just my 2 cents

steal (stiːl) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— vb , steals , stealing , stole , stolen
1. to take (something) from someone, etc without permission or unlawfully, esp in a secret manner
2. ( tr ) to obtain surreptitiously

To be fair, a car is just a luxury one gets specifically for the reason of having something nice(not to mention the fact that it's significantly more expensive than music). I don't think it's really fair to compare stealing a car with stealing software you'd use to pursue your passion of creating/listening to music. I do believe there are moral grey areas in regards to stealing, it isn't simply as black and white as you're making it out to be. This is just my opinion, however. Although rarely, I do feel as though stealing can sometimes be justified.

[Pedro Sánchez]

I have committed many crimes in my past and I'm no saint when it comes to modern media, I stream tv shows from the states and alike. But every single piece of music I own whether it be the thousands of vinyl, mp3, wav, aiff, whatever, is legally purchased or given to me directly.

I think some semblance of stability can be retained, everything evolves and progresses, it's up to the industry to find the right business model and educate (not punish ala the RIAA) their potential customers.

I have ripped vinyl I bought, then sold said vinyl and I still have the mp3, I'm a criminal. I also have ripped CD's, then same CD with bonus CD is released later on and I downloaded the bonus CD. I'm a criminal.

[Sexual_Chocolate]

No one, bar maybe Skrillex, Magnetic Man/Skrenga is making that cocaine money anymore.

I watched the Artwork Redbull lecture and I'm sure he was saying he doesn't know how anyone is making money from solely making music these days or words to that effect. Piracy is not gonna stop now, a generation has grown up with, as they *see it, free de-valued media and add that in with the fact anyone with a PC and an internet connection can make 'loud' tunes, I don't see it getting back to stability ever again. The sad thing is also, all us in this thread have illegally acquired tunes on our hard drives, be it big label releases or underground vinyl rips. You wanna make money from music these days? learn how to write music software and idevice apps.

surprisingly all my music has been payed for (bar the obvious free eps & dubs)

i got to a certain point where i decided that the music i had i didnt deserve, so i cleared by HD and started paying for music