DJing vs Ableton Live

[forsak3n]

After seeing soo many arguments from DJ's about people using Ableton Live to play music in live venues, I pondered on it and came up with a few ideas that i'd love to get people's opinions on. I'm not sure if they've been posted here before, or not, so my apologies if it has been.

Reading so many discussions/arguments from DJ's about producers/musicians using Ableton Live to mix their music live I've noticed the only real argument they are saying is that "they're just 'pressing play'" or 'they're trying to be DJ's'. Yeah, this is true for some people who are too lazy to mix and learn how to properly DJ on CDJ's or Vinyl, but IMO it doesn't apply to producers who are playing their own tracks and interweaving samples, FX as well as tracks by other producers. There's actually a lot of work going into to create a 'set', rather than just mixing track after track together which is what traditional DJing is about (no credit being taken away from *good* DJ's here, it does take a lot of work and practice to be able to make a good mix).

My ideas are this:
- Because the of level of production that goes into making dance music now, there's no possible way to recreate it live, like rock bands do (yeah, there are electronic bands doing their thing, but it's still not up to the exact level of actually playing a well produced song, from what I've heard anyway).
- As producers can't recreate their music live, some resort to DJ'ing, an already established way of how people play out dance music. Or they make a live set on their laptop using Ableton Live, using samples and FX and loops and whatever else to tastefully spicen up their set, giving a live performance in the context of a club; where people would normally do a traditional DJ mix.

The other argument I hear is from non-electronic music musicians, like guitarists, singers etc saying the same thing DJ's are saying: 'They're just pressing play' or 'turning knobs & pressing buttons'. Yeah, true, the interfaces are knobs, buttons and faders but the thing is those knobs, faders and buttons are hooked up to FX, loops and whatever else that require knowledge and practice to be able to give off a certain emotion to the listeners/crowd. Turning these faders, buttons and knobs doesn't require the same mechanical skills it takes guitarist to play crazy fast lead licks, or a singer to be able to hit the high note, but it still requires practice and knowledge to be able to get a specific reaction from a crowd. Getting a producer that doesn't know what they're doing up on stage that triggers god awful distortions or whatever is the same as getting a guitarist up on stage to do a solo and they don't know how to play a scale.
I guess my point with this is that even though playing live on Ableton using triggers isn't as physically demanding as playing an instrument, it requires just as much practice and knowledge to get specific reactions from a crowd.

Finally, I'd like to bring these points together. Just because producers are on a laptop pressing buttons doesn't mean they're 'just hitting play', there's a lot of pre-production, knowledge and skill that is required to incite reactions from crowds. Yeah, it's boring as fuck to watch. But who the hell goes to a club to see DJ's carefully beat match 2 songs together on CDJ's or vinyl? It's about the tasteful transitions between songs, and the emotion it incites, not the way it's done. The most exciting gigs i've been to were the ones with the best stage show, nice transitions and crazy antics, and i could not give a shit as to what method they were using to play their songs.

[Lye_Form]

Both playing live (as a producer) and DJing are respected.

The most important thing is to do wherever you are doing well.

[AxeD]

Watch out though, if I catch you 'djing' with Ableton.. all hell will break loose.
2012 shit.

[breakitdown]

Djing is all about reading the crowd and reacting to the room - i've seen really shit sets with perfectly mixed transitions and i've seen some amazing sets with proper pots and pans mixing.

The whole argument about people not really djing cause the computer does the beatmatching is non starter. Anyone can learn to beatmatch in a few hours. Learning to properly program a set - react to the crowd to take it up a notch or bring it down a bit, the right moment to drop the killer track or know when to ride through a filler ... is an art that takes months and years to learn properly, regardless of your beatmatching or button pushing skills.

The live thing is a funny one... particularly around dance music these days (I'm talking the more mainstream 'EDM' acts) . For the masses it's become a spectacle like going to a rock concert - but as it is just someone pushing some buttons it's jazzed up with costumes and over the top, non existent filter tweaking so the audience feel like they are getting their monies worth.

Somewhere along the line, when the everyone started facing the DJ booth was where it all started to get a bit shaky. I think it would make a huge difference if the DJ/Live act was off to the side away from the front and audience and everyone just got on with it.

Then who cares about the delivery - it's just all about the music as it should be.

I just read that back to myself - a bit disjointed but i can't be bothered retying

[viberous]

I use ableton to play/dj live because of a couple of reasons: If i want to play 6 entire tracks at the same time (would sound like complete shit!), I can do so. I can have as many effects/whatever mangling the audio as much as my own creativity allows me to. If i want to play the intro-->outro-->second verse-->chorus in the span of 16 measures...I can do so. These feats could probably still be attained in a more traditional way of djing (cds, vinyl), but basically, I like being a complete control freak with ableton. Can I beatmatch? yes. Do i suck at it? Yes, but that should not be a deterrent to play live. Imo this whole "button pushers" thing comes from the fact that anyone can grab a copy of ableton and automatically think themselves as a "dj." Those that just hit play are really bad/boring and those that have cool/unique settups are awesome (Eskmo, Sub Swara, Nosaj Thing to name a few). The same way as some who use cdjs just wait for the entire track to play...say something about the next track, then hit play on the other cdj and repeat this cycle for an hour. Also, I think with the way cdjs are heading, they will essentially be ableton in a box in no time! Just some thoughts

p.s. In no way am I trying to belittle traditional djing or say one is better than the other. One of the sickest shows I've seen was Dieselboy conjuring the dnb gods using 3 decks all playing at the same time

[Sharmaji]

Sub Swara

ha!

At this point, w/ the amount of midi and OSC control that's available-- a live set is a live set and a DJ set is a DJ set. The interesting interstitial space between the 2 that existed while we waited for the technology to catch up is pretty much gone-- now there's just a ton of cool ways to create live sets. How we tackle the ableton side of things live in SS is different from how Brendan Eskmo does it, EOTO does it a different way, Glitch Mob does it a different way... there's as many solutions as there are acts.

I think it's a good idea to draw a very strong mental line, though. treat a live set like a live set and DJ set as a DJ set. Things are generally more scripted in a live set-- if you're playing a song, you've got to get to the bridge, etc-- and the focus is really on your performance. In a DJ set, your focus should be on reading the crowd, selecting the right tune at the right time, and taking folks on a very for-the-moment journey.

[viberous]

treat a live set like a live set and DJ set as a DJ set.

Really dig this. In terms of a dj set, whats your take on beatmatching vs. warp/syncing in ableton? Or is it even irrelevant to compare the two as long as one is able to read the crowd and foster the journey?

[AxeD]

Half the 'live' sets are not nearly as 'live' as just playing the records though.

Or do they mean Live, as in the software

[didi]

Half the 'live' sets are not nearly as 'live' as just playing the records though.

Or do they mean Live, as in the software

[Sharmaji]

Really dig this. In terms of a dj set, whats your take on beatmatching vs. warp/syncing in ableton?

different tools for different times. w/ that said, when we've done SS DJ sets since 2009, we've kept our ableton setups-- just easier to stick to the single format when 2 of us are playing.

in the rare occasions that i dj solo, i like using vinyl & serato-- just because that's what i grew up with. the same issues of sync'ing come up-- when to start a mix, etc-- but you go about them different ways. I actually think you have more control in terms of getting the groove "locked" in a dj set, as you can mix tunes that might clang rhythmically when you've got a machine doing it for you. That right there changes your selections...

[Mad_EP]

I actually think you have more control in terms of getting the groove "locked" in a dj set, as you can mix tunes that might clang rhythmically when you've got a machine doing it for you. That right there changes your selections...

That right there...


I Do everything in Live, just because I got tired of having a million programs for a million functions. So I use Live to produce, sound design, play live sets as well as DJ.. but I'll tell you, of 'em all - DJ'ing in Live is actually the hardest. Sure, once things are locked it is all cool...and you can do some dope shit you can't do with other means... but it isn't as immediate. I get annoyed with people who say DJ'ing in Live is easy... cos it is the same amount of work, but it is just that most of the work had to be done before the set.

In terms of immediacy, I find it much easier to play a Brahms Sonata than I do to drop a DJ set in Live.

[SMOR3S]

I actually think you have more control in terms of getting the groove "locked" in a dj set, as you can mix tunes that might clang rhythmically when you've got a machine doing it for you. That right there changes your selections...

That right there...


I Do everything in Live, just because I got tired of having a million programs for a million functions. So I use Live to produce, sound design, play live sets as well as DJ.. but I'll tell you, of 'em all - DJ'ing in Live is actually the hardest. Sure, once things are locked it is all cool...and you can do some dope shit you can't do with other means... but it isn't as immediate. I get annoyed with people who say DJ'ing in Live is easy... cos it is the same amount of work, but it is just that most of the work had to be done before the set.

In terms of immediacy, I find it much easier to play a Brahms Sonata than I do to drop a DJ set in Live.

I would love to learn how to DJ in Live, cause for my set coming up soon, I am just going to use Traktor... I would also like to learn how to do those live effects like Skrillex.. Repeat, etc....

[Mad_EP]

I actually think you have more control in terms of getting the groove "locked" in a dj set, as you can mix tunes that might clang rhythmically when you've got a machine doing it for you. That right there changes your selections...

That right there...


I Do everything in Live, just because I got tired of having a million programs for a million functions. So I use Live to produce, sound design, play live sets as well as DJ.. but I'll tell you, of 'em all - DJ'ing in Live is actually the hardest. Sure, once things are locked it is all cool...and you can do some dope shit you can't do with other means... but it isn't as immediate. I get annoyed with people who say DJ'ing in Live is easy... cos it is the same amount of work, but it is just that most of the work had to be done before the set.

In terms of immediacy, I find it much easier to play a Brahms Sonata than I do to drop a DJ set in Live.

I would love to learn how to DJ in Live, cause for my set coming up soon, I am just going to use Traktor... I would also like to learn how to do those live effects like Skrillex.. Repeat, etc....

So learn it...

.. my first couple of sets were in Traktor too. There is no substitute for taking the time to just get down with it and dig in. Youtube & tutorials don't have SHIT on elbow grease and determination.

[bkwsk]

Youtube & tutorials don't have SHIT on elbow grease and determination.

This also applies to anything musicmaking-related.

[3za]

Youtube & tutorials don't have SHIT on elbow grease and determination.

This also applies to anything musicmaking-related.

Applies to life