Applying the correct mix-down...

[Thatoneguy1224]

This question might seem stupid but i have no idea on what to believe in. On one side of the fence is the Deadmau5 philosophy of applying the correct mix down unsted of bitching out and stacking a limiter on the master, the other (you can guess) is the limiter ideology. Me and my friend had a little argument on the proper way of handling a mix down. It ended with some insaults about sound quality and weak sound but in the end all that happened was me getting confused. Now I have always been a practitioner of never using the limiter but now i dont know. Even when comparing my levels in my songs to other songs from artists like Amon Tobin or Eskmo, there sound is huge and loud but after analyzing the levels on programs like traktor and ableton i see that the limiter is not in use


My Method:
Limiter-less
Never clip on input
Loud channels are handled by a combination of compressors and lower output on channels


My Friends Method:
Resample all audio into channel and render out for public use
Clips on input often
Stick Limiters on channels that are clipping (not master)

I know that my method is probably right but it never captures the same thick sound of my friends method. This really discourages me when showing my production because mine isnt as "loud" as his. Please let me know if you have a opinion on what works or anything that can help me justify my claim.

[Gravehill]

You should never be clipping any channel no matter what your approach to mixdown is. The mixdown process is about getting the mix to sound good and have all the parts of the song represented the way you want them to and the way you think best suits the overall vibe of the song. Light compression and limiting is generally used on tracks and busses to shape sounds and control transients but overall loudness should not be your one and only goal at this stage. When you are A/Bing your song with other professionally mastered tunes, make sure you adjust the levels so that the volume of both songs are the same. My advice is to never compress or limit more than 1 dB on the master - save that for the mastering engineer. IMO you should never be compressing on the master buss at all. It's very heavy handed and you need someone that can properly hear what is going on in the track

[Gravehill]

EDIT: double post

[Cubicle]

My opinion is: if people want to hear your music, they'll turn it up.
Slapping limiters on channels that are clipping is just removing all the headroom that would be left.
You'll have a loud track ye, but I won't enjoy listening to it.
I'm guilty to it aswel tho, I want to get it as loud as possible without removing to much headroom. When my final master is at -10RMS I'm fine.

[Thatoneguy1224]

You should never be clipping any channel no matter what your approach to mixdown is. The mixdown process is about getting the mix to sound good and have all the parts of the song represented the way you want them to and the way you think best suits the overall vibe of the song. Light compression and limiting is generally used on tracks and busses to shape sounds and control transients but overall loudness should not be your one and only goal at this stage. When you are A/Bing your song with other professionally mastered tunes, make sure you adjust the levels so that the volume of both songs are the same. My advice is to never compress or limit more than 1 dB on the master - save that for the mastering engineer. IMO you should never be compressing on the master buss at all. It's very heavy handed and you need someone that can properly hear what is going on in the track

Ok, thank you for the feedback! As to master bus part, one sentence you say don't over compress/limit on the master and the next you say never compress the master bus?

Oh and also the method of resampling the entire track, does this really work for anything positive or is it just bullshit to make bullshit not look like its clipping?

[Gravehill]

You should never be clipping any channel no matter what your approach to mixdown is. The mixdown process is about getting the mix to sound good and have all the parts of the song represented the way you want them to and the way you think best suits the overall vibe of the song. Light compression and limiting is generally used on tracks and busses to shape sounds and control transients but overall loudness should not be your one and only goal at this stage. When you are A/Bing your song with other professionally mastered tunes, make sure you adjust the levels so that the volume of both songs are the same. My advice is to never compress or limit more than 1 dB on the master - save that for the mastering engineer. IMO you should never be compressing on the master buss at all. It's very heavy handed and you need someone that can properly hear what is going on in the track

Ok, thank you for the feedback! As to master bus part, one sentence you say don't over compress/limit on the master and the next you say never compress the master bus?

Oh and also the method of resampling the entire track, does this really work for anything positive or is it just bullshit to make bullshit not look like its clipping?

Sorry, what I meant is that I don't personally think you should usually be compressing the master buss, but it's not the end of the world if you really want to compress the master like 1 - 1.5 db or something as long as you know what you are doing. That goes for anything on the master buss not just compressors, unless you really know what you are doing it is the fastest way to ruin a track, generally you just want to leave that stuff to a mastering engineer. If you want to compare your song to your friends make sure they are the same volume in your DAW, because even if his is one db louder it will sound a lot better, but that doesn't necessarily mean it IS better - volume plays serious tricks on your ears

I don't understand the resampling part though sorry

[RandoRando]

your track will sound better when turned up, on a good system especially. your friends tune is a flat wall of sound.

[Gravehill]

your track will sound better when turned up, on a good system especially. your friends tune is a flat wall of sound.

Yup, an overly squashed/distorted track will have no punch to it whatsoever

[Sharmaji]

You should never be clipping any channel no matter what your approach to mixdown is

unless that clipping sounds fantastic. rules you learn on the internet don't count as "rules"

[mthrfnk]

You should never really be clipping on input unless you're on an anlogue desk. In the digital domain clipping tends to sound very grainy or crushed if you let it clip for more than a few cycles.

I'm confused about when you mentioned some pro tracks not using a limiter though - how can you tell they haven't used a limiter? I'm pretty sure most pro's use some form of limiter on the master at least to bring up the mix down level. That's what I always do.

[Gravehill]

You should never be clipping any channel no matter what your approach to mixdown is

unless that clipping sounds fantastic. rules you learn on the internet don't count as "rules"

Of course there are no rules when it comes to music,its all completely subjective. However im assuming the OP wants to get the 'best' sound out of his mixdowns and im also assuming hes working digitally so its still good advice IMO

[didge]

If he's using a limiter to stop clipping...then his channel's aren't clipping, they're being limited. Simple really.

Try being more heavy handed with your compression to make it louder; you'll know when you've gone overboard. Similarly with your EQ. Getting everything out of the signal that you don't want (excessive low and high end) then make it as loud as you can (compression, distortion, short reverbs etc.)

[Genevieve]

The correct mixdown is the best sounding one. Compare both his mixes to yours on the same SUBJECTIVE loudness (not absolute). If yours sound better, that's cool. If his do, maybe there's a thing or two you can learn from him. But mixing is as much a creative exercise as songwriting it is, in my opinion.

[Gravehill]

If he's using a limiter to stop clipping...then his channel's aren't clipping, they're being limited. Simple really.

True but then everything he does before he puts the limiters on is completely pointless, and what if he bounces/resamples without a limiter on at some point? It only works if he starts from the get go with every track clipping and a limiter on the master or every track but that seems really inefficient to me with no point of reference and you are needlessly killing the depth and resolution of every single one of your sounds right from the start. You generally dont want EVERY sound in your track to be squashed to hell even if you are making brostep

[mthrfnk]

If he's using a limiter to stop clipping...then his channel's aren't clipping, they're being limited. Simple really.

Try being more heavy handed with your compression to make it louder; you'll know when you've gone overboard. Similarly with your EQ. Getting everything out of the signal that you don't want (excessive low and high end) then make it as loud as you can (compression, distortion, short reverbs etc.)

Why limit a clipped signal instead of just turning it down

Also, you really don't need to compress the shit out of stuff to make it louder imo.

[didge]

If he's using a limiter to stop clipping...then his channel's aren't clipping, they're being limited. Simple really.

True but then everything he does before he puts the limiters on is completely pointless, and what if he bounces/resamples without a limiter on at some point? It only works if he starts from the get go with every track clipping and a limiter on the master or every track but that seems really inefficient to me with no point of reference and you are needlessly killing the depth and resolution of every single one of your sounds right from the start. You generally dont want EVERY sound in your track to be squashed to hell even if you are making brostep

I don't understand what you just typed there bro but I think what the OP should take away is that loudness is primarily a function of audio amplitude and duration and that if he wants a louder mix he can increase the RMS of a signal (the signal "average") by using compression (i.e. limiting).

OP: If your mate's beats sounds better than yours why not ask him to guide you through his process or get him to mix one of your tunes down? That would be far more invaluable than forum chat tbh.

[didge]

If he's using a limiter to stop clipping...then his channel's aren't clipping, they're being limited. Simple really.

Try being more heavy handed with your compression to make it louder; you'll know when you've gone overboard. Similarly with your EQ. Getting everything out of the signal that you don't want (excessive low and high end) then make it as loud as you can (compression, distortion, short reverbs etc.)

Why limit a clipped signal instead of just turning it down

But that's two different processes that will sound different...? You might as well ask, why put a chorus on signal instead of a reverb?

[Gravehill]

If he's using a limiter to stop clipping...then his channel's aren't clipping, they're being limited. Simple really.

True but then everything he does before he puts the limiters on is completely pointless, and what if he bounces/resamples without a limiter on at some point? It only works if he starts from the get go with every track clipping and a limiter on the master or every track but that seems really inefficient to me with no point of reference and you are needlessly killing the depth and resolution of every single one of your sounds right from the start. You generally dont want EVERY sound in your track to be squashed to hell even if you are making brostep

I don't understand what you just typed there bro but I think what the OP should take away is that loudness is primarily a function of audio amplitude and duration and that if he wants a louder mix he can increase the RMS of a signal (the signal "average") by using compression (i.e. limiting).

Basically I just meant that even though limiting will stop the track from clipping, it's not a good idea to completely ignore clipping just because you're going to limit the track

[Maxxan]

Seriously. Everyone telling you that "if someone wants to listen to your tune they'll turn it up" are, no offense here guys, speaking a load of horseshit.

See, the thing is that most people who are going to hear your tunes are going to be casual listeners. They're not going to know about mastering, dynamics etc. They're going to think your tune sounds worse and less professional than your friends. Your friends songs are going to go on their iPods, because guess what? ALL commercial music is loud. Go ahead and listen to any brostep/electro/whatever track. I dare you to find one that's not a compressed wall of sound.

You're not going to find it, because those producers realize this. And even if someone DID download your track, when I'm listening on my iPod on the way to work or at the gym or playing some tunes at a party or whatever I dont want to stop every two seconds and turn the volume up because some asshole left their track half the volume of all the other ones. Sure, if I do it sounds good but it's a fucking hassle and I don't want to be bothered with it.

This is how a normal music consumer thinks. If you want anyone to listen to it, you need to compress it. I'm not saying you gotta smash it to shit, but your track needs to be in the same ballpark as commercial producers and anyone telling you otherwise is a hipster asshole. If you don't believe me, just have a listen to any of your favorite tracks. I'm not saying limiting the shit outta everything sounds better, but you need to do it to some extent if you want to compete.

Trust me on this, kid.

Now, bring the hate bitches.

[Genevieve]

I don't mind the idea of having a 'soundcloud' mix you show everyone and a "properly mixed" track to play out or send to labels/DJs/etc.