How many years of experience? :/

[ftwgmorm]

Continuation of this thread: https://devel.dubstepforum.com/forum/vi ... 8&t=300614
We had a great conversation about 10000 hours but the thread seems to be gone because of the recent forum restore.
Anyway

I'm sure Skream hadn't racked up 10,000 hours of production when he made Midnight Request Line, or Mala when he made lean forward. Hell, Beethoven was like 7 when he made his first composition wasn't he?

Yeah he didn't, and that's why his production was far from perfect.

[Ema_geodiV]

We are having a really nice convo before the forum restarted -_- the 10,000 hours thing is just a myth though. Plus Beethoven was a genius, so that's why he can make kick ass tunes minus the 10,000 hours

[ftwgmorm]

We are having a really nice convo before the forum restarted -_- the 10,000 hours thing is just a myth though. Plus Beethoven was a genius, so that's why he can make kick ass tunes minus the 10,000 hours

If he started playing piano at the age of two, making music 8 hours a day, he would have spent 14600 hours making music by the age of seven.

[hubb]

well, alot of ideas are being thrown around... what bit is it you want to debunk?

The Malcolm Gladwell thing is not a rule but just a good idea really...

also Pinch started way before deciding on Pinch as his producer name btw..

imo beginners/kids make the sickest stuff

[RKM]

all the dungeon producers probably followed the 10,000 hrs rule

[fragments]

all the dungeon producers probably followed the 10,000 hrs rule

I don't really get these threads TBH. Who cares...it smacks a bit of those "magic wand" type threads to me...I understand discouragement, but I love making tunes so much, the process, being creative... I don't spend a lot of time worrying about these kinds of things. How many hours do I need to put in? How many years? The answer is as many hours and years as it takes for you to get what you want out of music.

I'm getting what I want right now and still find myself improving.

[Ema_geodiV]

all the dungeon producers probably followed the 10,000 hrs rule

I don't really get these threads TBH. Who cares...it smacks a bit of those "magic wand" type threads to me...I understand discouragement, but I love making tunes so much, the process, being creative... I don't spend a lot of time worrying about these kinds of things. How many hours do I need to put in? How many years? The answer is as many hours and years as it takes for you to get what you want out of music.

I'm getting what I want right now and still find myself improving.

You have a point but I created this thread because of curiosity, Curiosity about how long does it take for you to get out of that amateur stage of music producing. There is no accurate answer for this so that's why everybody has different opinions about it and that is the purpose of this thread, to hear different experiences. The 10hrs thing about producing is just an extension of our convo before the forum restarted >.<

[legend4ry]

I'll probably get slewed for this but I think its the truth.



I'd say its a good ratio between time:money.

Even just getting a decent computer to produce on will cost you £600. Everyone starts making better music when they get off that hand-me-down laptop.

Time too, notice that most of the people who blow up are students, unemployed or just dodgey drug dealers? Yeah, they got the time to sit there and produce all day.

The reality is that a normal 9-5er with commitments other than turning up to a class will have a longer journey getting to where they want to be but will have the money to have the higher end gear for when they do find the time.

I'm not saying either is better but if you can find 20 hours a week to put into your productions then I not only am envious but also reckon you'll start seeing good results within 2-3 years.


EDIT:

As a side note, some people progress further than others easier. Some people really 'get' the sound design aspect of it and can bang out beautiful patches within weeks/months of picking up subtractive synthesis for the first time.

Others will be able to recite all common scales and modes just due to them having good memory and getting that side of it.

Some people are not very good at either of those but have a fantastic ear for music. Some of my favourite producers don't know a single thing about theory, shit they don't even patch their own synths but some how make AMAZING music.

Some people are awful at everything and take years to even finish a track.

There is no guidelines and with the internet and ease of technology it just depends how it settles with you.

[Ema_geodiV]

I'll probably get slewed for this but I think its the truth.



I'd say its a good ratio between time:money.

Even just getting a decent computer to produce on will cost you £600. Everyone starts making better music when they get off that hand-me-down laptop.

Time too, notice that most of the people who blow up are students, unemployed or just dodgey drug dealers? Yeah, they got the time to sit there and produce all day.

The reality is that a normal 9-5er with commitments other than turning up to a class will have a longer journey getting to where they want to be but will have the money to have the higher end gear for when they do find the time.

I'm not saying either is better but if you can find 20 hours a week to put into your productions then I not only am envious but also reckon you'll start seeing good results within 2-3 years.

You are actually right . I don't want to bring up skrillex but he's one of the examples of those. He quit high school and all he does after that is producing music. He gone big but he's live performance sucks balls way back in 2010, because he only uses this freaking mac book and one MIDI controller. Then after years passed he switched to Pioneer DJM mixer and he improved his live shows really really well.

[legend4ry]

Yeah but skrillex was already a trained musician before he even picked up a computer to make beats.

He knew how to direct a crowd, how to make music what has a appeal to a audience but also keep personal integrity as well as theory and even how to collaborate, he also probably had loads of people to bounce ideas off through his travels of meeting people. All it was for him was to learn how to use software, that is the easiest part.

I personally can't stand the blokes music but I can't even deny he is passionate about it and would still make that sound even if 3 people listened to it.

He is a very very very very poor example.

Most people who are learning to create music these days have probably only ever walked up to a piano and banged their hands down on it to make a noise or hit a triangle when they was in elementary school. People with a musical background who start make electronic music rarely suffer gripes with making music or making it sound good, they just have to learn software.

[Ema_geodiV]

Yeah but skrillex was already a trained musician before he even picked up a computer to make beats.

He knew how to direct a crowd, how to make music what has a appeal to a audience but also keep personal integrity as well as theory and even how to collaborate, he also probably had loads of people to bounce ideas off through his travels of meeting people. All it was for him was to learn how to use software, that is the easiest part.

I personally can't stand the blokes music but I can't even deny he is passionate about it and would still make that sound even if 3 people listened to it.

He is a very very very very poor example.

Most people who are learning to create music these days have probably only ever walked up to a piano and banged their hands down on it to make a noise or hit a triangle when they was in elementary school. People with a musical background who start make electronic music rarely suffer gripes with making music or making it sound good, they just have to learn software.

oh so you are literally talking about people who started from scratch.. I can't think of any :/

[fragments]

all the dungeon producers probably followed the 10,000 hrs rule

I don't really get these threads TBH. Who cares...it smacks a bit of those "magic wand" type threads to me...I understand discouragement, but I love making tunes so much, the process, being creative... I don't spend a lot of time worrying about these kinds of things. How many hours do I need to put in? How many years? The answer is as many hours and years as it takes for you to get what you want out of music.

I'm getting what I want right now and still find myself improving.

You have a point but I created this thread because of curiosity, Curiosity about how long does it take for you to get out of that amateur stage of music producing. There is no accurate answer for this so that's why everybody has different opinions about it and that is the purpose of this thread, to hear different experiences. The 10hrs thing about producing is just an extension of our convo before the forum restarted >.<

Let me rephrase my response then ;p

I don't worry about it. I'm not on a schedule. I'm not sure if its true, but I feel like I'm in a minority that doesn't care about getting signed or even really being part of a scene or having my tracks heard by a lot of people. I've already got a career. I've tired of "the scene" some years ago. I don't even really care about going out to see any artists these days.

These days I spend about half my time just doing hardware jams that I mix on the fly with very few mixing tools. I don't even own any particularly impressive hardware. Its truly about what I get out of it myself alone in the studio. The rest of the time I do "studio productions" all ITB which I do release from time to time. But I don't really promote them at all.

I guess I am kind of musing on how the dichotomy of amateur and pro when one isn't really seeking external validation.


I think Legend4ry has a good point too. Even though I don't make a ton of money, I've got pretty reliable income and live in a place with low cost of living. I can buy a lot of music toys and lot of them have helped up my game, though they would be useless without some amount of experience and knowledge.

I dunno. Sorry. This is maybe pretty useless. I've been doing this for about 7 years and I've still got loads to learn. I feel like the one really big thing that made me happier with my tunes was to stop worrying about the mixdown. Also when I stopped worrying about the mixdown my mixes got better. This also happend around the time I invested in a legit listening chain composed of zero entry level items.

Edit: also when I stopped worrying about the mixdown, I started going back to learn more theory. I'd been in choir for some years in middle school, had some guitar lessons in high school. Never stuck with any of it...but a little theory took me a long way!

[Ema_geodiV]

all the dungeon producers probably followed the 10,000 hrs rule

[+] Spoiler

I don't really get these threads TBH. Who cares...it smacks a bit of those "magic wand" type threads to me...I understand discouragement, but I love making tunes so much, the process, being creative... I don't spend a lot of time worrying about these kinds of things. How many hours do I need to put in? How many years? The answer is as many hours and years as it takes for you to get what you want out of music.

I'm getting what I want right now and still find myself improving.

[+] Spoiler

You have a point but I created this thread because of curiosity, Curiosity about how long does it take for you to get out of that amateur stage of music producing. There is no accurate answer for this so that's why everybody has different opinions about it and that is the purpose of this thread, to hear different experiences. The 10hrs thing about producing is just an extension of our convo before the forum restarted >.<

Let me rephrase my response then ;p

I don't worry about it. I'm not on a schedule. I'm not sure if its true, but I feel like I'm in a minority that doesn't care about getting signed or even really being part of a scene or having my tracks heard by a lot of people. I've already got a career. I've tired of "the scene" some years ago. I don't even really care about going out to see any artists these days.

These days I spend about half my time just doing hardware jams that I mix on the fly with very few mixing tools. I don't even own any particularly impressive hardware. Its truly about what I get out of it myself alone in the studio. The rest of the time I do "studio productions" all ITB which I do release from time to time. But I don't really promote them at all.

I guess I am kind of musing on how the dichotomy of amateur and pro when one isn't really seeking external validation.


I think Legend4ry has a good point too. Even though I don't make a ton of money, I've got pretty reliable income and live in a place with low cost of living. I can buy a lot of music toys and lot of them have helped up my game, though they would be useless without some amount of experience and knowledge.

I dunno. Sorry. This is maybe pretty useless. I've been doing this for about 7 years and I've still got loads to learn. I feel like the one really big thing that made me happier with my tunes was to stop worrying about the mixdown. Also when I stopped worrying about the mixdown my mixes got better. This also happend around the time I invested in a legit listening chain composed of zero entry level items.

now I get it... Well I'm about to study in Hollywood (college) for Audio engineering -_- it's making me worried coz I don't know if it will make me better at making music ( I do know music theory though) or It will make me busy as fuck and I don't have time making music of my own. But it's not a big deal for me though, it's just I hope that that path will make me happy. Thanks for sharing this too "Also when I stopped worrying about the mixdown my mixes got better" coz I always worry about my mixes and start rolling in the floor because I suck so much but I always ended up loving to do more and hopefully better music of my own

[_Agu_]

I'll probably get slewed for this but I think its the truth.



I'd say its a good ratio between time:money.

^This shit over here is everything imo.

Time too, notice that most of the people who blow up are students, unemployed or just dodgey drug dealers?

I've noticed this since i'm unemployed at the moment. I couldn't really get anything even half good together (in terms of making full tracks) for 2 years when I was working 9-5 in a pretty hectic job environment.

As a side note, some people progress further than others easier. Some people really 'get' the sound design aspect of it and can bang out beautiful patches within weeks/months of picking up subtractive synthesis for the first time.

Been producing "music" for 3 years, while in reality 98% of that has been sound design.

Some people are not very good at either of those but have a fantastic ear for music.

Savant is a good example

Some people are awful at everything and take years to even finish a track.

I'd say this is half true for me. I might first use 2hrs for drums, then get some melody going, then decide that drums weren't good enough, so make another set = another 2hrs. Now the synth patch doesn't work well enough with the drums for me, so i'm gonna make a new one etc. etc. etc. after putting 8hrs on the track my mood has changed so i don't want listen to the thick layered lead made from 5 different patches, so I start over to make completely something else.

In the end, every track i've finished, is finished only because i forced myself to it and that means the quality and arrangement ends up being crap (e.g. chorus 2 being exactly same as chorus 1, no any exciting fx's or fills, mixing with only headphones, squashing track to death...).

I still enjoy it tho.

[hubb]

You have a point but I created this thread because of curiosity, Curiosity about how long does it take for you to get out of that amateur stage of music producing. There is no accurate answer for this so that's why everybody has different opinions about it and that is the purpose of this thread, to hear different experiences. The 10hrs thing about producing is just an extension of our convo before the forum restarted >.<

I think it's way more important to not call it the amateur stage tbh m8 - it's more the being proffesional bit that can stand in the way of making good music. The initial feeling of hey I might be able to do something with this, is much more important to keep alive- than the bit where all the elements are clean and become framework that lables go for. Sure there's like a couple of lables that don't (1 maybe lol), but the rest will rather put out a standard than create a new one. .

[outbound]

Hey guys I made the best ever track, seriously this thing transcends all music labels and has the potential to revolutionize not only electronic production but music and even sound as we know it...

Oh wait sorry I've only clocked 9000 hours, nvrmnd

[ftwgmorm]

Hey guys I made the best ever track, seriously this thing transcends all music labels and has the potential to revolutionize not only electronic production but music and even sound as we know it...

Oh wait sorry I've only clocked 9000 hours, nvrmnd

You need 10000 hours to become an expert IN TECHNICAL TERMS OF PRODUCTION. Anyone can WRITE catchy tunes. It's creativity, duh.

[fragments]

I'd love to hear your argument, ftwgmorm, there are no natural talents at mixing and audio engineering and how it is everyone is automatically good at song writing? Or am I misreading you? Because it more or less sounds like what you meaning in that statement. I guess I'm not understanding why it is song writing is easier to grasp because it is creative and mixing is harder because its "technical".

[Mad_EP]

First of all - as mentioned...

the 10,000 hours thing is a myth. I can speak first hand, because not only as an artist, but also a teacher the past 8 years... I can tell you that - sure, more hours is better... BUT ONLY IF those are efficient, and productive hours. Most hours people spend on a craft(whether cello, production, kazoo, drawing, etc) are *passive* hours. Those hours really don't mean shit. In fact, sometimes they are actually harmful cos they reinforce bad habits.

Really, only the active and efficient hours that are carefully problem solving, correcting mistakes, analyzing, etc are the ones that really make a difference.

I'm not saying that beautiful mistakes can't lead to breakthroughs and changing results... BUT the difference is, that happens here and there... but just endlessly fucking around will maybe lead to a breakthrough or two - but will never truly refine a craft.

[Ema_geodiV]

^ what he said