Noob question about summing and clipping

[zosomagik]

So I see guys who produce tracks and their master channel is clipping (which is obviously a big no no) but I never hear any distortion (at least within reason, the track isn't clipping by a lot) Is this due to the digital domain still being able to sum everything nicely before you export the audio? obviously you wouldn't export your track while it's still clipping the master channel, but I'm curious about this due to the fact that I would be able to produce a little bit louder and not always be paranoid about the sum of my master channel. I could mix the tune down around zero and then bring all the faders down so the sum is between -3 and -6db then move one to mastering.

Also note that I'm a total scrub and don't know much, so if any terminology I'm using is wrong and this doesn't make sense, I apologize.

[lkd]

I could answer this but im tired...
viewtopic.php?t=74832

Read through that
Should help you

[zosomagik]

Cheers dude, but I've read through a lot of the stuff in the production bible. I'm just curious as to whether or not it really matters that much until you have to master. Obviously in analog form it would be crucially important, but does it matter in the digital domain?

[AxeD]

It's the other way around. In analogue you can get away with a lot of clipping. In digital,
just try to keep all your tracks out of the red. When you're still in the writing stage, it doesn't
really matter, but why would you want to have the channel path louder? Just turn up
your monitoring if you want more volume.

Clipping indicators go off a few dBfs before audible distortion sets in, but that's a useful
safety imo.

[legend4ry]

You have your terminology around the wrong way.

You can clip analogue a lot harder than digital before it starts sounding like a awful mess. Clipping some analogue desks actually sounds lovely!

Mixing to 0 then pushing the master channel down is still a mix at 0, just turned down like a volume knob rather than having actual gain structuring.

Rather than making everything sit in its little space and leaving head room you're squeezing everything in and leaving no room for the master.

If in the 'creative' stage you want things to be louder, which I can completely understand why don't you add a hard limiter on your master till you've got about 60% done then turn all the faders down and start bringing things up with the master strip clean?

I am just confused why you want to be mixing to 0.

[zosomagik]

Thanks guys, I thought analog you just wanted to record as close to zero as possible to avoid noise. But like I said, I'm a scrub/noob. That's besides the point though. I don't necessarily want to be mixing at zero, my monitors are just shit. And I wasn't talking about turning down the master fader at the end, but all other faders.

[legend4ry]

noise is character, charm, depth!

If your monitors are just then just crank your project file and mix down on headphones.

I did that for years.

[fragments]

Thanks guys, I thought analog you just wanted to record as close to zero as possible to avoid noise. But like I said, I'm a scrub/noob. That's besides the point though. I don't necessarily want to be mixing at zero, my monitors are just shit. And I wasn't talking about turning down the master fader at the end, but all other faders.

Yea...but using all ITB instruments you really don't have to worry about a noise floor AFAIK. From my understanding it is true you want to record instruments coming from OTB with plenty of signal, maybe even pretty "hot/red" depending on your pre-amps etc etc etc, but gain staging is another thing entirely when you go to mix. You might record that guitar hot, but you might turn it down after its recorded an in the mix.

If you aren't using an analog equipment, don't worry about analog. Its so fucking different from doing all ITB DAW music it almost doesn't apply.

Somebody stop me if I'm talking out of my ass...

[Turnipish_Thoughts]

Yeah what others have said really. Don't think about making stuff louder inside the project. If you want to hear things more loudly, turn your monitors up. If you have shit ones find some other way of turning it up (headphones e.t.c.). It's a really bad habit to get into maxing out your channels inside the project for the purposes of more volume.

You've got to think about the finite space you're working in. All sounds happening in the project all have to fit into it. You want to be turning the amplitude up at some point after the audio is summed out the master buss, because then you're not altering the digital footprint of the audio being rendered in the box. You're just turning up the amplitude after the fact. This is a really important thing to understand.

That finite space is the digital, hard limit that 24 bits can hold (even if your DAW works in 32bit floating point, when you go to print, your audio is gonna be hitting the same wall). As waveforms are being sampled in your daw (not 'sampling' like Kontakt sampling), amplitudes going over that 'bit width' threshold literally don't exist. the peaks and troughs going above and below that limit are getting smashed against that impassable wall and flattening. If you don't really know what I'm going on about, have a read up on digital audio and how waveforms are digitally created. Basically, it's a bad idea. the harder you clip stuff, the more you're turning all your waveforms into square waves. Pushed too hard it can sound horrible. But more subtly it's just a really bad way of approaching production. You need shit turned down, you need decent head room, you need a proper mix. You physically cannot mix a track with everything pushed into the red. The 'space' you're trying to work in literally doesn't digitally exist. Mixing in the red is the equivalent of slapping a wave-shaper on every channel and riding the drive knobs.

[Trichome]

yeah just mix your tune normally until the final stage.

I intentionally soft clip most of my tunes instead of using a limiter.

[Turnipish_Thoughts]

I intentionally soft clip most of my tunes instead of using a limiter.

How are you doing said soft clipping? slightly riding into the red or using an actual soft clipper?

[Trichome]

an actual soft clipper

if you pushed it into the red it would just be standard clipping, a soft clipper rounds off the peaks instead of just cutting them square

[Turnipish_Thoughts]

an actual soft clipper

if you pushed it into the red it would just be standard clipping, a soft clipper rounds off the peaks instead of just cutting them square

Yeah that was gonna be my next thing to say if you had said you were pushing a little into the red Soft clipping is a wicked way of softening stuff up.