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alan · Post by **alan** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:05 pm

can we put a sticky up asking people not to post about how to copy other musicans sound, thro this people will hopefully be more orignal and write there own music not identicate tunes that will kill this sound...rant over.

fullyrecordingz · Post by **fullyrecordingz** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:20 pm

it aint like da people cattin other ppls sound/beats are gonna get big enuff 2 "kill the sound"
why is every1 antispatin the downfall of dis genre?

2000f · Post by **2000f** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:43 pm

FullyRecordingz wrote:it aint like da people cattin other ppls sound/beats are gonna get big enuff 2 "kill the sound"
why is every1 antispatin the downfall of dis genre?

Exactly, mate. I actually reckon that 99% asking for help would prefer to develop their own sound. Who would otherwise sign, release, distribute or buy them? I think that if I was a rookie needing help one way or the other, this forum ought to. It might develop new, interesting artists that will push the sound forward. But don´t expect the rookie to have a complete and unique sound from day one (I know you didn´t write that), and it´s learning by doing (and asking: "who did you manage to make that sound?" etc).

metalboxproducts · Post by **metalboxproducts** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:06 pm

I think the point is, if you've just started to make tunes it a lot easier to ask here how make a particuar sound as oppossed to spending a little time on figuring it out ya self. This is obvioulsly an atractive alternative to spending hours programng and is a quick cheap fix, but it can in no way replace hard work. There's no problem telling people how to make a sound that is popular , but the people asking have to realize that that sound will be out dated as soon as the next popular sound evolvesis . All that will happen is there will be a deluge of sound a like tracks on the productin forum. As it is there is already to many tracks that use the same structure, sounds, bass, drums formuler. And it's fuching boring." i want my tune to sound like DMZ". Why? They are, and always will be DMZ. You will not sound like any thing but a copy/fake, and no one wants that. John Lennon once said something along the lines of when he was learning how to play all he did was try to emulate his hero's. The result didn't sound like it but he realized it sounded good. The point being you still have to learn from something/one. Often new sounds come about threw trying to sound like something else. This wont happen if the person trying is told how to do it the easy way. Experiment and find you own sound. If the person you are trying to sound like was in the room telling you how to do everything you wont have acheived anything other than sounding like them. And you will have missed out on a huge amount a valuable insight in to how to make a track. I have found that in music you really do learn from you mistakes. Or for that matter your mistakes are often you best ideas. Its just a matter of recognizing them when they occure.
That wasn't ment to be be a huge rant, but hey, I hope it made a litle sense

ozeb · Post by **ozeb** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:40 pm

bigup to metalboxproducts...

Just finished watching Scorcese's doc on Bob Dylan - I had no idea how closely he patterned his early career after the life and style of Woody Guthrie. Can we suggest that Bob Dylan's uniqueness and importance to American folk music was somehow marred because he copied his influences?

I really think that's an elitist and short sighted statement to make. I was really excited to dust off my gear and take a shot at my new found passion - knowing full well that the attention to sub bass in dubstep is FAR more advanced than what I had ever attempted.

Now I will know to take caution in the Production forum before I ask for "help". Thanks for the heads up.

metalboxproducts · Post by **metalboxproducts** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:11 am

ozeb wrote:bigup to metalboxproducts...

Just finished watching Scorcese's doc on Bob Dylan - I had no idea how closely he patterned his early career after the life and style of Woody Guthrie. Can we suggest that Bob Dylan's uniqueness and importance to American folk music was somehow marred because he copied his influences?

I really think that's an elitist and short sighted statement to make. I was really excited to dust off my gear and take a shot at my new found passion - knowing full well that the attention to sub bass in dubstep is FAR more advanced than what I had ever attempted.

Now I will know to take caution in the Production forum before I ask for "help". Thanks for the heads up.

Ozeb. Were you refuring to me being short sighted in my statement.? I thought is was well balanced and didn't fall on one or the other sides of the debate. Or am i being paranoid?

ozeb · Post by **ozeb** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:19 am

nah man - in full agreement! sorry for the confusion.

metalboxproducts · Post by **metalboxproducts** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:23 am

COOL

alan · Post by **alan** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:31 am

ozeb wrote:bigup to metalboxproducts...

Just finished watching Scorcese's doc on Bob Dylan - I had no idea how closely he patterned his early career after the life and style of Woody Guthrie. Can we suggest that Bob Dylan's uniqueness and importance to American folk music was somehow marred because he copied his influences?

I really think that's an elitist and short sighted statement to make. I was really excited to dust off my gear and take a shot at my new found passion - knowing full well that the attention to sub bass in dubstep is FAR more advanced than what I had ever attempted.

Now I will know to take caution in the Production forum before I ask for "help". Thanks for the heads up.

but bob dylans albums of merit only have an influnce and thats fine, but if they where just woody guthrie ripoffs it would of failed from the beginning...infact even his first record(freewheeling etc) didn't sound like an indenticate of guthrie.

its quite interesting you bring up folk musican's because using a cpu is the new folk music cause any tnuc can do it, but the folk scene had orignality in it because its all based around the words, where as electronics is based around sound, and if everyones using the same sounds we're doooooooooooomed

i've nothing against helping people learn, even tho ive done everthing thro trail and error (minus a btec in music technology) and kinda of feel like i have developed my own sound, even tho the influnces are easy to spot.
i do get the feeling that the people asking these queastion will then just write an identacte tune and try and relase it which is something dylan or lennon didn't do...it seams the joy of creating something orignal isn't an interesting propect anymore and that these people want to write a dstep tune because people will think there well cool, i also think that most of them arn't beginners in music, just lazy.

this doen't just go for dstep...nevermind rant over.

e1.11 · Post by **e1.11** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:59 pm

alan wrote:ive done everthing thro trail and error (minus a btec in music technology)

er..

alan wrote:people asking these queastion will then just write an identacte tune and try and relase it

If you're talking hyperbolically then within any genre there will be a certain amount of tunes that sound "identacte" by the fact that for a genre to form there is a required continium throughout the tunes. Leave the desicions on what gets released to the labels - if its a shite version of another tune it won't get put out i'm sure.

Expecting people to stop asking for advice on a production forum is to remove one of its key purposes. People post either to promote their work or find out how to improve their skills. The posts offering assistance ensure reciprication of that assiatance. What would you rather people asked how to make/do?

alan wrote: i also think that most of them arn't beginners in music, just lazy.

How the fuck do you know? If everyone really is the bollocks and just pretending to be shit in order to steal knowledge, what are they doing? Why waste time asking those - many who have proffesed to having little expertese - who post on here.

alan wrote:its quite interesting you bring up folk musican's because using a cpu is the new folk music cause any tnuc can do it, but the folk scene had orignality in it because its all based around the words, where as electronics is based around sound, and if everyones using the same sounds we're doooooooooooomed"

But only the people who do it well are ever remembered, why fret over the ethics of other producers? Similar to people who resent commercial artists pushing uncredible replicas of genres deemed accepatble in underground circles, all you're doing is wasting energy. Who is this we that are doomed?

Sorry this is so long and its nothing personal, just that post really needed a response IMHO.

ramadanman · Post by **ramadanman** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:21 pm

i'm in agreement - threads like "what tempo is dubstep at " or "What is a typical dubstep drum pattern" annoy me..listen to the music, and make your own interpretations!

alan · Post by **alan** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:47 pm

uhm im not going to replay to every point, i disagree with you e1.11 for explame trail and error to get your own sound is very different to learning how a patch bay or microphones or basic synthersis work....but im dislexic and will just make a spacktard of myself, nice to know you have an opian tho.

my basic point is; the sound of dstep has evoled to this point where people have a simular core sound but are still orignal with in that...there'll always be bandwagan jumpers always will, but shit threads like how do i make my bass sound like vexd aren't what a production forum should be about.

constructo · Post by **constructo** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:32 pm

I really like how most dubstep producers i've listened sound different unlike nowadays dnb.. then i doubt its someone wanting to copy or learn that ruins a genre.

More like .. labels start accepting what sounds like someone else only and giving more importance to the technical side, the old once-genius gets lazy and finds a simplest mass appealing tune-making formula... plus the audience accepting that bullshit. Thats how happened to dnb in my opinion.

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:01 pm

If people can't work out what tempo a beats at, or are just scamming for Dubstep 101 drum rhythms, then yeah, that is actually pretty bullshit. If you can tap a rhythm in then you should have no problems layering a beat until it sounds good.

I don't expect everyone up here to be amazing off the bat, but some of these questions invite nothing but derision - reading between the lines a lot of it could be "I've heard this is cool, yet I haven't really heard any dubstep, and have absolutely no analytical powers to determine what I like about it if I had - could you give me the tools I need to sound like a generic dubstepper, so that everyone'll get bored really sharpish".

Everyone needs to start somewhere, but these opening salvoes do make me worried about what's to come - 6 million clones of Midnight Request Line no doubt. Maybe there could be a noob production subforum, that'll answer basic questions about how to make bass lines, layer drums, use of effects etc, which could be an instant stopoff for newcomers.

ozeb · Post by **ozeb** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:16 pm

I am beginning to understand the core of the issue... if someone likes Brahms, they can't just walk into the symphony and sit down in the first violin chair and say "ok, so i like this stuff - now show me what to do?"

In regards to plaguerism and redundancy - perhaps new producers need to have a pact stating that they will never release all of the tunes from that "exploratory period" where they sounded a bit too much like Toasty

I do kind of like Shonky's idea of a "First Timer's" prod board so that those who are more skillled don't have to deal with the clutter of basic questions and yet people who are excited but not versed who could grow to become something spectacular still have a place to feel safe when asking questions... though a strict policy about using the search function would need to be in effect or folks will keep walking in, grabbing a trombone and asking the same damned question about spit valves over and over.

ozeb · Post by **ozeb** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:19 pm

alan wrote:its quite interesting you bring up folk musican's because using a cpu is the new folk music cause any tnuc can do it

This is funny as hell btw.

shonky · Post by **shonky** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 8:22 pm

Yeah, shouldn't put off the first timers, as I doubt if we were all that amazing when we started. Gotta keep an eye on those fuckin trombonists though...

Jubz · Post by **Jubz** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:15 pm

If they go after someone else's sound they should not get very far. No need to ban it, let em try and inevitably fail and hopefully learn from that.

narcossist · Post by **narcossist** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:05 am

personally not that arsed either way, but would be nice if we could keep the good vibes that have been runnin for time on here.

3dm · Post by **3dm** » Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:47 am

If they go after someone else's sound they should not get very far. No need to ban it, let em try and inevitably fail and hopefully learn from that.

I'm in agreement with this, as copycats rarely get taken seriously anywhere.

Even though I'm a 'learner driver' with this dstep thing (gotta work on those sub b-lines some more), I'm not at all interested in sounding like the next guy - where's the fun in that?

Whenever I approach any new style, not only do I try and figure out the basic ground rules for myself (although sometimes figuring out bpms can be tricky), I also want to find my own twist on it.

I taught myself back in the day how to programme synths and produce tracks on a portastudio, because there was no one else around to ask back in the 1980s and early 1990s, and some people even thought it wasn't 'proper music' (no Guitars you see) and laughed in my face.

But I persevered because I KNEW it was the future of music, even though for many years I worked in isolation (no internet!). The way I learned was not by asking others, because I couldn't, but by listening to other artists, reading lots of books, and experimenting.

So peeps coming up now are very lucky to be able to ask around on the web about how to do this'n'that, but at the same time, it's no substitute for being rigorous and trying things out for yourself, and ultimately finding your own unique voice.

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