Progression From Loop Mode to Full-Bodied Song Mode

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:49 pm

At what stage in your experience with production did you proceed from simply making beats/loops, to understanding that "Shit, let me structure this into a song"?

For the past year I've been making more of an effort to do that. But it was hard coming from a hip-hop mentality, making beats for two years (though the beats I was doing at that time weren't exactly hip-hop, nor would I even bother asking someone to rhyme over them) to attempting earlier in 2008 to do A and B sections. The most I would do was maybe strip out the drums some, strip out the melody some, reintroduce them later, etc.

Another thing I noticed, in relation to my other thread "Your Average Song Output", was when it was loop-based....it was two beats a day sort of thing. My output now (2-4 a week) is a result of trying to develop actual song-song-song type songs.

What about y'all?

jolly wailer · Post by **jolly wailer** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:59 pm

around the time I started trying my hand at remixing and using accapellas it gave me a better sense of what was goin on with song structure etc... take the accapella out of the picture and use the same techniques of progression and I was out of the loop based quagmire, somewhat... its still a challenge tho

lojik · Post by **lojik** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:58 pm

I've never really had a loop mentality. I've always put stuff together in the context of a song, even with ejay!

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Wed May 13, 2009 6:14 pm

^^ Interesting both.

Lojik: Is there a specific style of music that's your anchor? For me it's hip-hop (as I was saying before).

I grew up playing classical so I'm surprised I didn't take that method to songs immediately.

chronicrecords · Post by **chronicrecords** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:14 pm

ive only been producing for like 3 months and i would say i started structuring the songs about 1 week into producing. very simple stuff though, like having the bass line play out and then the kick drops in , then the cymbals creep in as well, but my main goal was to have a 3+ minute track that wasnt just the same thing over and over..

legend4ry · Post by **legend4ry** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:17 pm

Yeah ive never been that loop-based, ive always tried to build on the track, just through years of listening to music it was kinda common sense to me to constantly evolve the track and such..I guess its because I never listened to much hiphop/dnb/house before I started producing - I was mainly into rock music and UKG.

Thus the result of this I find it really hard to make hiphop for vocals, because not everyones like MF Doom and find it hard to flow on something what constantly switches up and Ive had to "dumb down" myself to some extent and its helped more than not as now I realise how stuff doesn't have to switch up lots to be interesting, its the general concept of the tune and subtleness what makes it most interesting and most fun to make (imo)

lojik · Post by **lojik** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:16 pm

Kapital wrote:^^ Interesting both.

Lojik: Is there a specific style of music that's your anchor? For me it's hip-hop (as I was saying before).

I grew up playing classical so I'm surprised I didn't take that method to songs immediately.

Not really a style but definately around 140BPM. That tempo can go lots of different ways - dubstep, house, trip-hop, breaks, trance or even ambient. It seems to be the perfect speed to get interesting percussion loops, or take it in whatever direction you want energy-wise.

To be honest I was writing songs in bands before I really got into computer music so it was pretty much just a change in instrumentation and methods rather than anything else, I've always looked for how a part will fit into a song.

rhek · Post by **rhek** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:30 pm

I still sit there cained as fuck listening to a 16 bar loop over and over.. I spend way too much time on the drop. For me its at which point is the drop goo denough to structure the tune around.. and it never seems to be.

legend4ry · Post by **legend4ry** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:31 pm

My advice is to peopel struggling on loops......
write longer peices!

So if you usually make 8 bar melodies.

make 16 or 32s, clone the melody and make 3-4 variations of that.. same with drum pattens, basslines, pad lines, random hits, make variations!

after the initial drop...

change it up every 16 bars.. - even if it is just 1 note difference or a slight panning or phaser on the melody..

Continue this when you're playing around or lacking inspiration on old tracks so it becomes natural to you..

Every gets stuck in the loop phase even if you don't write in loops at some point in their tune where it just gets repetitive /lacks something ontop but some find it easier to get out of it than others - just practice really.

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Wed May 13, 2009 9:44 pm

Legendary wrote:My advice is to peopel struggling on loops......
write longer peices!

So if you usually make 8 bar melodies.

make 16 or 32s, clone the melody and make 3-4 variations of that.. same with drum pattens, basslines, pad lines, random hits, make variations!

after the initial drop...

change it up every 16 bars.. - even if it is just 1 note difference or a slight panning or phaser on the melody..

Continue this when you're playing around or lacking inspiration on old tracks so it becomes natural to you..

Every gets stuck in the loop phase even if you don't write in loops at some point in their tune where it just gets repetitive /lacks something ontop but some find it easier to get out of it than others - just practice really.

To get out of loop-mode, I've been putting this into practice....8 bar drum patterns with variations on the last 4 bars....and then a second 8 bar drum pattern..same thing. Then switch it up for another 16 bars....with variations within. It's helped me immensely.

For melodies, thought this is kind of sloppy, I'll just play a synth along to the drum pattern to the end of the song. One take. Sub bass, the same....just jam along. Kinda cool. You end up with some random shit...and then in the end, if I find any particular aspect of the melody loopable, I might cut it out and use it towards the end of the track when I start stripping down shit.

But yeah working in 32s or more definitely helps.

nomadjames · Post by **nomadjames** » Wed May 13, 2009 10:29 pm

Yeah start with 32 bars that encompass all elements of your song. You will need to mute tracks to make it all fit together, probably. The work OUT. If you come up with an idea for a bridge, chorus, drop, intro or whatever just right it in a different area. When you have a bunch of good ideas together, lay out the basic structure of the song then move all your parts into position. That is how i do it, anyway.

r · Post by r » Thu May 14, 2009 12:02 am

i've a jazz and house/techno mentality. I work loop based but i got lots of a-b-c-d loops. I glue them with fx's and other stuff. Sometimes the loop is the cool thing. Why not repeating it ? I just make what works and if there comes an idea i put it into the track.

Sometimes u just need to arrange your stuff tho you've a loop. While listening you'll think like : OH HERE SHOULD BE A BREAK OF A HIGH SYNTH MELODY... Yep just make that melody you think it should be.

Just try to make it really natural. Everybody has its own a or b stuff. Sometimes its just a switch of the groove..... other times it has to be another progression of chords. Otherwise you just only need that high bell rhodes thingie you cant tell what it is after the 16 bars everytime.

My main advice is : Let people (inc. yourself) trip on the stuff you made. Hide little secrets in your tracks. After listening a couple of times youll notice new things tho you made them by yourself

kapital · Post by **kapital** » Thu May 14, 2009 12:19 am

R wrote: My main advice is : Let people (inc. yourself) trip on the stuff you made. Hide little secrets in your tracks. After listening a couple of times youll notice new things tho you made them by yourself

Definitely...the way I do is that I listen to my tunes like 10 times after it's completed. The 10th time I noticed some random clap pattern towards the end. Or certain snares pitched up and down....shit like that.

alphacat · Post by **alphacat** » Thu May 14, 2009 12:35 am

Start setting deadlines for yo'self, and/or enter the DSF Samplepack contests.

Seriously, song structure & flow was always hard just because there was never any reason to stop: everything was infinitely & endlessly recombinant, 'specially after hitting the chalice all night. It allllll sounded sooo gooooood, maaaaannnn....

[squints, nods head to beat]

But - having a deadline to meet forces you to prioritize, make firm decisions, and get a sense for what works best for you in the end. It used to take me months to try and nail down one song; after doing a few of the contests I can bang out a decent rough arrangement in under 3 hours now.

Try it.

cloak and dagger · Post by **cloak and dagger** » Thu May 14, 2009 6:14 am

I'm having loads of trouble arranging a track right now...for the first time in a really long time, I'm making a track built around a 4-bar sample...making simple stuff interesting for 5 minutes is a REALLY hard thing to do.

DOOMTROOPER/T40 · Post by **DOOMTROOPER/T40** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:19 am

Lojik wrote:I've never really had a loop mentality. I've always put stuff together in the context of a song, even with ejay!

Same, I've always had a song mentality rather than loops. Ahhhh Ejay days. . . and Music 2000 for Playstation

serox · Post by **serox** » Thu May 14, 2009 8:39 am

Rhek wrote:I still sit there cained as fuck listening to a 16 bar loop over and over.. I spend way too much time on the drop. For me its at which point is the drop goo denough to structure the tune around.. and it never seems to be.

same:(

Progression From Loop Mode to Full-Bodied Song Mode

Progression From Loop Mode to Full-Bodied Song Mode

Who is online