How to get bigger sounding tracks? I'm getting frustrated

[sleightmind]

Hey all. So I've been working on producing tracks for a few years now, and I'm getting very frustrated with the results. I've collected thousands of samples, dozens of patches and filters. My favorite tools are Ableton for the DAW, Massive (and sometimes Absynth) for the synth, Ableton's Impulse for drums, then for filters I use Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Ohmicide, and a few random others. I've pored over the forums and watched tons of tutorials and demos online. After all my effort, every track I make sounds like "computer music", meaning it just sounds small and flat. I am a classical guitarist, so I have a good knowledge of music theory, so I can make pretty melodies on the keyboard, and I've been a DJ for 12 years, so I know the formula for a track (intro>break>buildup>drop>ride>break>buildup>drop>outro) and I know what a good track is supposed to sound like. I just can't make it happen with these tools though. Can anyone help me out?
As far as process, I basically find a preset in Massive that I like, tweak the knobs a bit, run it through a filter or two, EQ it, and compress it. Is there a better process I should be using for building up the sounds?
Am I just asking too much of my software? Are there any professional producers that use 100% software, or is hardware a requirement? Are there any killer software/filters that I'm missing out on?
I'm thinking my standards are just too high after so many years of DJ'ing, I want my shit to sound like the big boys, and anything less just makes me lose interest. I've got dozens of riffs and half-finished tracks that just didn't get my blood pumping enough to see them through.
Maybe I'm just ranting, I just wanted to start a discussion and hopefully get some pointers or how-to's to get me on the right track.
Thanks guys.

Deviance

[fragments]

It's hard to say with out a sample tune or more information. IMHO one should be able to make a pretty "pro" sounding track with the tools you've got on hand. There are any number of reasons a song may sound "small" or "flat".

You mention filtering, EQing and compressing...sure you aren't subtracting/squishing all the dynamics out of your tracks? Use as little of each of these as you can to achieve the sound you are looking for.

Edit* It's also possible what you feel you are missing is the result of pro tunes being sent to professional mastering services. Another thought...what are you doing gain structure/mix down wise? That can have a lot to do with smallness and flatness.

[Gurnumsbug]

Do you know how to use the software you have? I mean like fragments said "sure you aren't subtracting/squishing all the dynamics out of your tracks?"
Other than that there are tons of reasons why your tunes aren't coming out larger than life...
Are you just listening to the tune straight out of Ableton? If so then I would suggest giving it a rough master to see how it sounds a little louder...(limiter, compressor etc..)

[Sharmaji]

simplify arrangements so that only what needs to be there is there. The is the biggest problem that musicians from the live side (myself included) have when composing electronic music. All the variances of live performance that make things feel right as a musician-- you need about 1/20th of that, if any, in EDM. Strip away every shred of excess and get your tune lean and mean.

mix-wise:
kill transients in things that don't need them. compress, distort, limit, and clip like crazy on various elements, so that you can let others cut through.

use good reverbs.

[Teknicyde]

simplify arrangements so that only what needs to be there is there. The is the biggest problem that musicians from the live side (myself included) have when composing electronic music. All the variances of live performance that make things feel right as a musician-- you need about 1/20th of that, if any, in EDM. Strip away every shred of excess and get your tune lean and mean.

mix-wise:
kill transients in things that don't need them. compress, distort, limit, and clip like crazy on various elements, so that you can let others cut through.

use good reverbs.

You just said a massive mouthful.

To the guy who said to self master something, nonsense, you cant polish a turd. Every single patch, each little hihat track in your tune should be everything it can be, working towards the bigger vibe. And like sharm said, everything you do should have a reason.

I wanna add though, a good stereo image and a soolllid ambience is key. OP, try building a really epic soundscape sometime, dont write music, just make like, an epic vibe/ambience... After you do, render it down, and consider that your first instrument, build from there. If you design the 'space' before you write music in it sorta if that makes any sense at all?

[Gurnumsbug]

To the guy who said to self master something, nonsense, you cant polish a turd.

[Heartless]

inb4 "resampling"

[65L]

use kontakt

[wormcode]

I think this is something everyone struggles with sometimes.

Fill up the entire frequency spectrum from 30hz - 20khz. I don't mean add more sounds, I mean make sure the sounds you are using are filling in all the right spots. Solid top end, solid mids, and solid bottom end. Try to work backwards or in a new way. For example, you said you start by finding a patch and then effect and compress/EQ. Try to just make the tune without EQing anything, just make it first then do the mixdown after it's done. I don't like working that way personally, but some people find it a preferable way to work and maybe you're one of them.

Am I just asking too much of my software? Are there any professional producers that use 100% software, or is hardware a requirement?

No, in 2011 the majority of people in electronic music are mostly in the box using software. Not everyone by any means, but a large majority. A lot of people do use outboard synths and effects, but that won't automatically make a tune sound full.

Have you tried any other DAWs? Live is totally capable of doing what you want, but it's just something else to experiment with. Switching DAWs won't magically change your sound though. It mostly changes workflow if anything which can often be helpful.

[thedefinition]

I swear it's going to come to the point where people need to take tests or go through a series of questions, before new users can create threads, then MAYBE they'll actually read through the site material before making these posts. Anywho, here's a few links to threads on this forum that should help you...

Comprehensive Resampling Tutorials
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 4#p2206342

The "Infamous" Bass Thread
http://dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=159658

Mixing and Gain Structure aka The "Moneyshot" Thread
http://www.dubstepforum.com/this-thread ... 74832.html

Free Software
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=54027

Try giving yourself lessons and taking the challenge in small steps if you become frustrated. Not everyone has the natural ability to produce great tracks, but with enough practice, you'll be busting out bangers with the best of them. I do suggest taking your 10 favorite tracks and trying to recreate them using what you've learned in order to get yourself in the practice of building a structure from various sounds.

And last but not least, read the manual to your synthesizer thoroughly. You have the right tools all ready, you just need to become an expert at using them.

If you still can't make big tracks after reading most of those...I've got bad news for you....

[wub]

Hey all. So I've been working on producing tracks for a few years now, and I'm getting very frustrated with the results.

Don't worry, frustration happens to us all.

I've collected thousands of samples, dozens of patches and filters.

Do you really need all of those sample/patches/filters etc? It sounds like you may be suffering from data overload. Think of your sample/patch library as a garden. A garden needs both cultivating and weeding. For example, deleting sample packs that you have actually never used.

My favorite tools are Ableton for the DAW, Massive (and sometimes Absynth) for the synth, Ableton's Impulse for drums, then for filters I use Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Ohmicide, and a few random others. I've pored over the forums and watched tons of tutorials and demos online. After all my effort, every track I make sounds like "computer music", meaning it just sounds small and flat. I am a classical guitarist, so I have a good knowledge of music theory, so I can make pretty melodies on the keyboard, and I've been a DJ for 12 years, so I know the formula for a track (intro>break>buildup>drop>ride>break>buildup>drop>outro) and I know what a good track is supposed to sound like. I just can't make it happen with these tools though. Can anyone help me out?

From this paragraph, it sounds like a structuring problem. I'd recommend taking a selection of tunes you like, and listening to them with a critical ear, with a reporters pad next to you to make notes on how the tune progresses. I used an example in a previous thread of this;

Right, so for the Shackleton tune I had the following notes;

Vinyl crackle in background
Bongo loop
Vocal sample
Synth/deep pads
Synth/Higher bleeps
2nd vocal sample
Piano hook
Drop into synth bleep, different pattern
synth pads build
bass drop, gradual with [can't read my handwriting here]
sub kick & stuttery snare
Bongos come back
vocal samples on heavy delay
Variation in bongos
Bass drops
Piano comes back
2nd vocal sample
Bongos in and out
Piano variation
Synth bleeps
Drop, roll out, strip out


Syntax is a bit off in some of them, and haven't used the 'correct' terms for some of the elements, but the main thing is that I associate my notes with what I was hearing as the tune progressed. Then fired up FL and tried to recreate what I'd heard, using the above as a template. Didn't sound anything like the original, but it was enough of an excerise to give myself a grounding in a few new methods, plus had a pre existing structure to base things on, even if the finished product was quite far removed from the original.

Do this for a few tunes you like and wish to emulate, see if that helps you understand structure.

As far as process, I basically find a preset in Massive that I like, tweak the knobs a bit, run it through a filter or two, EQ it, and compress it. Is there a better process I should be using for building up the sounds?

You might do well to learn how to program your own patches, as opposed to just using the presets. There are two methods I'd suggest for this;

1) Load a blank/empty patch. Turn and twist every single knob and guage and dial, and listen to how that effects the sound. See what combinations of parameters do to the output. Try different variations etc etc.
2) Find a patch you like already (for Massive, I used the example of Brutal Electro). Take a screenshot of it (Printscreen > MS Paint). Now, load up the aforementioned blank/empty patch and recreate Brutal Electro from the screenshot. As you work towards replicating Brutal Electro, you'll hear how the sound evolves and changes based on the parameters you are adjusting to get it to match.

Am I just asking too much of my software? Are there any professional producers that use 100% software, or is hardware a requirement? Are there any killer software/filters that I'm missing out on?

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. Dance music is formed on using whatever was available. Hell, the Roland TB-303 (acid house) wasn't even meant to be a bassline device. It was originally sold as a drum machine to allow guitar players to play along to something. It's a case of taking what you have and making it work.

I'm thinking my standards are just too high after so many years of DJ'ing, I want my shit to sound like the big boys, and anything less just makes me lose interest. I've got dozens of riffs and half-finished tracks that just didn't get my blood pumping enough to see them through.

I'm the same tbh mate. I've been DJing 11yrs now, and tbh production wise I'm still only just scratching the surface. But fuck it, if I knew how to do everything up front I doubt I'd enjoy it

Maybe I'm just ranting, I just wanted to start a discussion and hopefully get some pointers or how-to's to get me on the right track.
Thanks guys.

Deviance

No worries man

[sleightmind]

Wow... Thank you guys so much. This feedback is incredible.. This definitely gives me some much needed motivation, as well as some structure to build on. It sounds like I really need to dig deeper into the finer points of just a few tools, rather than playing with a dozen tools at a surface level. It sounds like I need to put myself through some schooling, and think of learning the tools as an academic project before I start trying to make completely original music. I guess since I've been a musician my whole life, I take for granted the time I've spent learning the instruments I play.

So a few questions.. Do you guys have any favorite filters you use along with Massive? I feel like Massive gives me a good start, but I need additional filters to give it more depth and space.
Also, there was one comment about filling up the frequency spectrum. Is there a tool that can show me a graph, or do you just do it by ear? It would be nice to see a spectrograph or something that would show me which frequencies are higher or lower as the track goes on. Am I thinking too much into this?

Thanks again guys. This is a great help.

Deviance

[ambinate]

Also, there was one comment about filling up the frequency spectrum. Is there a tool that can show me a graph, or do you just do it by ear? It would be nice to see a spectrograph or something that would show me which frequencies are higher or lower as the track goes on. Am I thinking too much into this?

not thinking too much into it at all, having a visual aid can be really helpful. this thread's got some great suggestions for free plug-ins for this:

http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=152236

[skimpi]

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. Dance music is formed on using whatever was available. Hell, the Roland TB-303 (acid house) wasn't even meant to be a bassline device. It was originally sold as a drum machine to allow guitar players to play along to something. It's a case of taking what you have and making it work.

actually no the TB-303 was made to accompany the TR-808 for people to play along to. TR = rhythm TB = bassline. but it was house and techno producers that obtained them years later for cheap after they were discontinued due to poor sales that used them in an unorthodox way to create the typical acid bass.

So a few questions.. Do you guys have any favorite filters you use along with Massive? I feel like Massive gives me a good start, but I need additional filters to give it more depth and space.

really filters are all much the same, all they do is cut frequencies above or below set thresholds, talking mainly high and low pass filters here, having 'bette' filters wont make you sound better, you need to know where to cut to get the best sound. I dont really get what you mean by depth and space, filters dont really deal with that, unless you mean space in the frequency spectrum, if you want to create depth in the mix you need to be using reverbs and delays, they can do ALOT for a mix.

[wub]

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. Dance music is formed on using whatever was available. Hell, the Roland TB-303 (acid house) wasn't even meant to be a bassline device. It was originally sold as a drum machine to allow guitar players to play along to something. It's a case of taking what you have and making it work.

actually no the TB-303 was made to accompany the TR-808 for people to play along to. TR = rhythm TB = bassline. but it was house and techno producers that obtained them years later for cheap after they were discontinued due to poor sales that used them in an unorthodox way to create the typical acid bass.

I stand corrected

[skimpi]

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. Dance music is formed on using whatever was available. Hell, the Roland TB-303 (acid house) wasn't even meant to be a bassline device. It was originally sold as a drum machine to allow guitar players to play along to something. It's a case of taking what you have and making it work.

actually no the TB-303 was made to accompany the TR-808 for people to play along to. TR = rhythm TB = bassline. but it was house and techno producers that obtained them years later for cheap after they were discontinued due to poor sales that used them in an unorthodox way to create the typical acid bass.

I stand corrected

ive just realised how much of a pretntious asshole/formal essay type response i gave there haha.

[Teknicyde]

So a few questions.. Do you guys have any favorite filters you use along with Massive?

Atlantis is a really nice all-in-one filtering solution, but I think your underestimating Massives filters.

[wormcode]

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. Dance music is formed on using whatever was available. Hell, the Roland TB-303 (acid house) wasn't even meant to be a bassline device. It was originally sold as a drum machine to allow guitar players to play along to something. It's a case of taking what you have and making it work.

actually no the TB-303 was made to accompany the TR-808 for people to play along to. TR = rhythm TB = bassline. but it was house and techno producers that obtained them years later for cheap after they were discontinued due to poor sales that used them in an unorthodox way to create the typical acid bass.

I stand corrected

You're both right except the 303 was always a bassline machine and was actually paired up with the TR-606 not the 808. That's why the 606 looks exactly like the 303, and I suppose 3x2 = 6 = 303/606 (the 808 was actually a bit older!). They originally wanted the machines to be geared towards bands or solo guitarists who sometimes needed a backing rhythm or bass maybe when someone didn't show up or they were writing solo, same with the early TR drum machines. They weren't geared towards techno/house music because that was still in its infancy and pretty unknown, it wasn't until house then techno guys started abusing them that they became known for that.

Also I have a cool little documentary on it if you guys want me to upload or dig out a link.

Oops sorry, thread derailing.

[SLASH]

<iframe src="/forum/video.php?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmyUkm2qlhA" frameborder="0" style="overflow:hidden; height:auto; max-width:540px"></iframe>

[wub]

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you. Dance music is formed on using whatever was available. Hell, the Roland TB-303 (acid house) wasn't even meant to be a bassline device. It was originally sold as a drum machine to allow guitar players to play along to something. It's a case of taking what you have and making it work.

actually no the TB-303 was made to accompany the TR-808 for people to play along to. TR = rhythm TB = bassline. but it was house and techno producers that obtained them years later for cheap after they were discontinued due to poor sales that used them in an unorthodox way to create the typical acid bass.

I stand corrected

You're both right except the 303 was always a bassline machine and was actually paired up with the TR-606 not the 808. That's why the 606 looks exactly like the 303, and I suppose 3x2 = 6 = 303/606 (the 808 was actually a bit older!). They originally wanted the machines to be geared towards bands or solo guitarists who sometimes needed a backing rhythm or bass maybe when someone didn't show up or they were writing solo, same with the early TR drum machines. They weren't geared towards techno/house music because that was still in its infancy and pretty unknown, it wasn't until house then techno guys started abusing them that they became known for that.

Also I have a cool little documentary on it if you guys want me to upload or dig out a link.

Oops sorry, thread derailing.

If you could, would love to see the link