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Let's say the drums hit up to -3 dB, what should be a fair volume for the sub?

Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

Thanks a lot! That's definately going to help!

While you're here, can I have your view on that one:
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=74831

I read that but it looked like you'd sorted it out

Besides, I was only going to say 'fuck all that shit - how does it sound?' I thought that might come across snobby/rude/condescending so I didn't post .


I feel a bit of a rant/preach/lecture coming on

The above post I made is proooooooperly important. Good fundamental gain structure from the word go is the easiest way to get a good mix. You should, IMHO, always be looking to get any/all sounds as right as possible, as early as possible in the signal chain IMHO. Think of a top notch jazz band - they play at the right level, it gets recorded, no mixing/eq/compression, no editing, no fuckin nothing. And it sounds the absolute bollocks.

While that doesn't totally apply to dubstep etc, the principle is the same. If your 'band' plays the right thing at the right level with a good sound, your tune will mix itself. All these sidechains and multiband doodads and insane eq curves blah blah - unless used specifically as creative effects - are just sticking plasters for the fact the 'band' fucked up.

[/preach]

IMHO of course

Macc wrote:I read that but it looked like you'd sorted it out

Besides, I was only going to say 'fuck all that shit - how does it sound?' I thought that might come across snobby/rude/condescending so I didn't post .


I feel a bit of a rant/preach/lecture coming on

The above post I made is proooooooperly important. Good fundamental gain structure from the word go is the easiest way to get a good mix. You should, IMHO, always be looking to get any/all sounds as right as possible, as early as possible in the signal chain IMHO. Think of a top notch jazz band - they play at the right level, it gets recorded, no mixing/eq/compression, no editing, no fuckin nothing. And it sounds the absolute bollocks.

While that doesn't totally apply to dubstep etc, the principle is the same. If your 'band' plays the right thing at the right level with a good sound, your tune will mix itself. All these sidechains and multiband doodads and insane eq curves blah blah - unless used specifically as creative effects - are just sticking plasters for the fact the 'band' fucked up.

[/preach]

IMHO of course

100% absolutely spot on!

Macc wrote:I read that but it looked like you'd sorted it out

Besides, I was only going to say 'fuck all that shit - how does it sound?' I thought that might come across snobby/rude/condescending so I didn't post .


I feel a bit of a rant/preach/lecture coming on

The above post I made is proooooooperly important. Good fundamental gain structure from the word go is the easiest way to get a good mix. You should, IMHO, always be looking to get any/all sounds as right as possible, as early as possible in the signal chain IMHO. Think of a top notch jazz band - they play at the right level, it gets recorded, no mixing/eq/compression, no editing, no fuckin nothing. And it sounds the absolute bollocks.

While that doesn't totally apply to dubstep etc, the principle is the same. If your 'band' plays the right thing at the right level with a good sound, your tune will mix itself. All these sidechains and multiband doodads and insane eq curves blah blah - unless used specifically as creative effects - are just sticking plasters for the fact the 'band' fucked up.

[/preach]

IMHO of course

once again

Jalfrezi wrote:

Macc wrote:I read that but it looked like you'd sorted it out

Besides, I was only going to say 'fuck all that shit - how does it sound?' I thought that might come across snobby/rude/condescending so I didn't post .


I feel a bit of a rant/preach/lecture coming on

The above post I made is proooooooperly important. Good fundamental gain structure from the word go is the easiest way to get a good mix. You should, IMHO, always be looking to get any/all sounds as right as possible, as early as possible in the signal chain IMHO. Think of a top notch jazz band - they play at the right level, it gets recorded, no mixing/eq/compression, no editing, no fuckin nothing. And it sounds the absolute bollocks.

While that doesn't totally apply to dubstep etc, the principle is the same. If your 'band' plays the right thing at the right level with a good sound, your tune will mix itself. All these sidechains and multiband doodads and insane eq curves blah blah - unless used specifically as creative effects - are just sticking plasters for the fact the 'band' fucked up.

[/preach]

IMHO of course

once again

+ 1

Macc wrote:Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

I suppose you mean on the Master channel.
If drums are -3 to 0 on their own channels what different does it make.

district wrote: this is interesting, might test it out on the tune i'm working on later as a rough guide.. cheers

It's just good, sensible mix practice

- You'll never have to move your master fader again

- You'll never get clipping again (unless you're really doing something wrong)

- You'll mix more consistently as you won't be 'chasing your tail', pushing things up on the left and turning them down on the right (sound familiar anyone?)

- You'll get a sense for where tracks should sit peak-level-wise depending on what they are (drums ~ -8 to -10, bass a bit lower, pads maybe -18dB, shakers down below that etc).

- following from that you'll start getting the sound right at source, and find yourself moving the faders less = better fader resolution for finer level tweaking

- Your tunes are more likely to be easily master-able (no clipping or shoehorning under 0dB happening)

- Your ME will thank you for it by making it sound fucking huge

Ketamine wrote: I suppose you mean on the Master channel.
If drums are -3 to 0 on their own channels what different does it make.

I'm talking peak output. Nothing to do with faders here (if I am reading you right). If a solo'ed channel peaks at -3 then the master will peak at -3. That's eating more of the cake than it should

Macc wrote:Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

But you are talking about how you want a tune when it is handed to you for mastering, right? If say someone is only boosting things to sound good to play on a rig from a CD then they have to do this, don’t they? If they don’t compress + limit loads then things will sound weak.

Nothing to do with mastering. You're completely missing the point

This is mixing It is the simple fundamentals of gain structuring for building a good mix. Whatever comes later, comes later - level boosting and what not. But I 100% guarantee (and I don't do that very often) that your mixes will improve with consistent, sensible gain structuring.

As a side effect, mastering (or level boosting for DJ play etc) becomes easier, and will yield better results because the mix is better built. It's as simple as that.

FWIW 'If they don’t compress + limit loads then things will sound weak.' is so terribly wrong. Quiet yes, weak no. Do some level-matched comparisons of heavily limited tracks vs their clean counterparts and tell me which is weaker

POWER comes from a good mix. Get the mix right and the level will take care of itself.

cool thanks. I cannot be alone with this but I often have my bass sitting around the same as my kick or it just doesn't bang. I often try get my tune to peak at the same level as another Dubstep tune and I will need to put the bass volumn up or it just doesn't come near where I want it too

[listening like 6 years old kiddy how grandfather is talking]

Serox wrote:cool thanks. I cannot be alone with this but I often have my bass sitting around the same as my kick or it just doesn't bang. I often try get my tune to peak at the same level as another Dubstep tune and I will need to put the bass volumn up or it just doesn't come near where I want it too

Remember that you're (probably?) comparing to a mastered tune. I'm going to put this in big letters

DO YOUR A-B COMPARISONS AT MATCHED SUBJECTIVE LEVELS

Turn that tune down so it sounds the same level as yours, not the other way round. THen you can properly assess the quality of your mix without being fooled by the level. Once you make your mixes sound as good as those, mastering will become almost trivial.

Ah, it sounds so easy when I write it like that

Macc wrote:
Turn that tune down so it sounds the same level as yours, not the other way round. THen you can properly assess the quality of your mix without being fooled by the level. Once you make your mixes sound as good as those, mastering will become almost trivial.

Ah, it sounds so easy when I write it like that

sorry to argue but
if I leave it like that when I give it to people to listen to it sounds really quiet:/

Dont know why but it seemed to make sense if I made my master volumn the same as other tunes and try and mix everything so it sounds the same. I am not putting things in the red but they are quite close:)

mix it down to -4db, then put a decent limiter on it before you play it to people to get the level up.

james fox wrote:mix it down to -4db, then put a decent limiter on it before you play it to people to get the level up.

I am not sure where I am limiting it too cos I am doing it in reason (no numbers). All I know is that its out of the red and I hear no distortion.

If I was going to be giving the tune to a ME then I wouldn't limit at all.

this thread is gold