Sub Bass, the key of 'G' and Harmonic Exciters.

[wirez]

Have been told in the past, and have recently read, that if you write in the key of G, then your bass will naturally sit in place.
The Quemists have recommended Bass Harmonic Exciters should you write in another key and discover your bass lacks on some systems...

Who can tell me anything, whatever, they know about this?

I'm thinking... Where in the chain, what exactly they do (I'm guessing they boost the harmony of the notes, eg. if you play G1, then G2 would be amplified? Correct me if I'm wrong...) Do you feel they're a good idea to use regularly, or just as a special tool you may need occasionally?

Feedback please!

[Depone]

im not sure about this one. It could be down to my rooms acoustics but d is the key i write most of my basslines in.
I use some soft saturation/exciting in my bass. Also if you use a 808 kick tail as a sub its sound beefy as funk!

[wirez]

im not sure about this one. It could be down to my rooms acoustics but d is the key i write most of my basslines in.
I use some soft saturation/exciting in my bass. Also if you use a 808 kick tail as a sub its sound beefy as funk!

I like your room acoustics bro, your tracks sound phat!

[scooterjack]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

[therapist]

Ah not this again. F people! Write in F, it's the only way you'll be able to get the note F into your tune.

[ianks]

What exciters do you use? I roll with the BBE SonicMaximizer. How do you go about doing this process on subs? I have never done this before seems interesting.

[wirez]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

This confuses me because your sub bass alone is then going to take up an area of the frequency spectrum I try to reserve for other things... What's more, if my peak frequency for my sub bass is around 50Hz, the harmonics will more than likely be bought out at around 100Hz, which is obviously where my kick (and properly some of my mid bass) lies...

[wirez]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

This confuses me because your sub bass alone is then going to take up an area of the frequency spectrum I try to reserve for other things... What's more, if my peak frequency for my sub bass is around 50Hz, the harmonics will more than likely be bought out at around 100Hz, which is obviously where my kick (and properly some of my mid bass) lies...

[scooterjack]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

This confuses me because your sub bass alone is then going to take up an area of the frequency spectrum I try to reserve for other things... What's more, if my peak frequency for my sub bass is around 50Hz, the harmonics will more than likely be bought out at around 100Hz, which is obviously where my kick (and properly some of my mid bass) lies...

You need to work not only on your mixing then, but also on your arrangement. You can't have it all, unfortunately

[wirez]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

This confuses me because your sub bass alone is then going to take up an area of the frequency spectrum I try to reserve for other things... What's more, if my peak frequency for my sub bass is around 50Hz, the harmonics will more than likely be bought out at around 100Hz, which is obviously where my kick (and properly some of my mid bass) lies...

You need to work not only on your mixing then, but also on your arrangement. You can't have it all, unfortunately

I have little problems with my mixing or arrangement. I asked this question out of interest for new techniques and new skills, I wasn't saying I had errors I needed correcting. As far as I'm concerned I feel people shouldn't really be listening to Dubstep, or the like, on speakers lacking low end.
I obviously use certain arrangement techniques, for example removing pads with low frequencies when something else hogging the same frequencies is present, such as a mid bass. You miss my point... Like I said, if I had a sub peaking at 50Hz and a Kick at 100Hz, then added harmonics to the sub (around 100Hz), this would cause my sub to clash with my kick. How could I do anything without changing key and completely ruining my track?

[pah jé]

^^ sidechain compression on just the low end of the bass with the kick as a signal.... just enough on the threshold to facilitate the compressor to kick in and eliminate high peaking where the kick + bass are conflicting...
~4:1 ratio, fast attack, release around 200ms or so (1/8 note)...
should duck the bass enough to let the kick come through but you can keep your harmonix...

someone correct me if i'm wrong...

[wirez]

^^ sidechain compression on just the low end of the bass with the kick as a signal.... just enough on the threshold to facilitate the compressor to kick in and eliminate high peaking where the kick + bass are conflicting...
~4:1 ratio, fast attack, release around 200ms or so (1/8 note)...
should duck the bass enough to let the kick come through but you can keep your harmonix...

someone correct me if i'm wrong...

I'm glad you've said this because I do this too... It sounds fine to me?

[macc]

You're spot on with the 100Hz/1st harmonic vs. kick thing wirez, IMO. That first harmonic area is IMO one of the biggest things people could be watching for a fat clean mix. I agree that good arrangement helps, but IMO that first harmonic is just shit in 99% of cases.

I'm all for fat bass with bundles of harmonics for fatness and audibility/warmth... just not those harmonics. Doesn't really add to either aspect beneficially IMO. Just makes the bass muddier, uses up room that could be used in the true sub area, and spoils cleanliness and audibility.

IMO FWIW YMMV IOW BRB WTF:6:

[scooterjack]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

This confuses me because your sub bass alone is then going to take up an area of the frequency spectrum I try to reserve for other things... What's more, if my peak frequency for my sub bass is around 50Hz, the harmonics will more than likely be bought out at around 100Hz, which is obviously where my kick (and properly some of my mid bass) lies...

You need to work not only on your mixing then, but also on your arrangement. You can't have it all, unfortunately

I have little problems with my mixing or arrangement. I asked this question out of interest for new techniques and new skills, I wasn't saying I had errors I needed correcting. As far as I'm concerned I feel people shouldn't really be listening to Dubstep, or the like, on speakers lacking low end.
I obviously use certain arrangement techniques, for example removing pads with low frequencies when something else hogging the same frequencies is present, such as a mid bass. You miss my point... Like I said, if I had a sub peaking at 50Hz and a Kick at 100Hz, then added harmonics to the sub (around 100Hz), this would cause my sub to clash with my kick. How could I do anything without changing key and completely ruining my track?

no need to get all hissy there sister, it wasn't a dig at you

And as far as most people are concerned, they couldn't care less what you think they should be listening on they'll just listen to someone elses tune that translates well to what they enjoy and/or are forced to listen to music on
PROPERLY written and mixed tunes, of any style should translate well onto the most basic of systems with minimal loss of feeling, that's what makes good engineers/producers stand out from from the gaggles of mediocrity.



i got your point, and i answered it, honestly. If you have things clashing in the same frequency range, it's an arrangement and/or mixing issue. Turn it down, eq it out, or take it out... plain and simple. If you want tips on avoiding such things, this thread has a ton of them - http://www.dubstepforum.com/this-thread ... 74832.html

[macc]

What he said. In your example just eq the fucker out, or use another way around it.

[therapist]

if you're using just a sine wave for a sub, then yes, you'll definitely need something to bring harmonics in, otherwise you'll have nothing resembling a low-end when your tunes are played in cars/ipods/etc...

90% of systems, especially in cars etc.. start rolling off the low end well above where most dubstep subs are sitting

This confuses me because your sub bass alone is then going to take up an area of the frequency spectrum I try to reserve for other things... What's more, if my peak frequency for my sub bass is around 50Hz, the harmonics will more than likely be bought out at around 100Hz, which is obviously where my kick (and properly some of my mid bass) lies...

You need to work not only on your mixing then, but also on your arrangement. You can't have it all, unfortunately

I have little problems with my mixing or arrangement. I asked this question out of interest for new techniques and new skills, I wasn't saying I had errors I needed correcting. As far as I'm concerned I feel people shouldn't really be listening to Dubstep, or the like, on speakers lacking low end.
I obviously use certain arrangement techniques, for example removing pads with low frequencies when something else hogging the same frequencies is present, such as a mid bass. You miss my point... Like I said, if I had a sub peaking at 50Hz and a Kick at 100Hz, then added harmonics to the sub (around 100Hz), this would cause my sub to clash with my kick. How could I do anything without changing key and completely ruining my track?

no need to get all hissy there sister, it wasn't a dig at you

And as far as most people are concerned, they couldn't care less what you think they should be listening on they'll just listen to someone elses tune that translates well to what they enjoy and/or are forced to listen to music on
PROPERLY written and mixed tunes, of any style should translate well onto the most basic of systems with minimal loss of feeling, that's what makes good engineers/producers stand out from from the gaggles of mediocrity.



i got your point, and i answered it, honestly. If you have things clashing in the same frequency range, it's an arrangement and/or mixing issue. Turn it down, eq it out, or take it out... plain and simple. If you want tips on avoiding such things, this thread has a ton of them - http://www.dubstepforum.com/this-thread ... 74832.html

I think he's saying why add in a harmonic if you're just going to EQ it out or possibly have some sh**ty sidechaining going in. You're the one telling this dude his mixes aren't good enough so fair play on his response.

[Depone]

Just a thought..
Can a lot of these bass lines that seem to stick out, sound warm and not collide too harshly, be down to psychoacoustics?
You know... how we perceive a bass to be bigger deeper than it actually is? I find that even with a lot of eq and sidechain funkery a synth just doesnt fit. so i get rid and find a new

[distro]

^^
A good bassline IMO comes down to (in order)

1.) Rhythm
1.) Melody
2.) Interaction with other percussive and or musical elements
3.) Movement (phasing, modulation, filtering), Fills/variation
4.)Progression
Then last
5.) Phat mix /presence/harmonics


You can have an unprocessed bassline where if all the notes are hitting the right spot Melodically and Rhythmically, it will stand out straight away. Harmonic exciters and extra production techniques are just extra shine. Focus on the fundamentals and your songs will rise above the rest.

[G31]

You can have an unprocessed bassline where if all the notes are hitting the right spot Melodically and Rhythmically, it will stand out straight away. Harmonic exciters and extra production techniques are just extra shine. Focus on the fundamentals and your songs will rise above the rest.

this

[wirez]

And as far as most people are concerned, they couldn't care less what you think they should be listening on they'll just listen to someone elses tune that translates well to what they enjoy and/or are forced to listen to music on
PROPERLY written and mixed tunes, of any style should translate well onto the most basic of systems with minimal loss of feeling, that's what makes good engineers/producers stand out from from the gaggles of mediocrity.l

Yes, but they also know full-well they're not listening to the music at it's full potential. My point is NOT that my music doesn't sound good on such systems, just that the sub lacks slightly ON THESE SYSTEMS. But, listening to some of the top Dubstep producers on these systems, their basses ALSO lack. So my point AGAIN, is not that my mixing/arrangement is lacking in anyway, I was searching for new SKILLS, NOT ways to correct my errors.

If you have things clashing in the same frequency range, it's an arrangement and/or mixing issue. Turn it down, eq it out, or take it out... plain and simple. If you want tips on avoiding such things, this thread has a ton of them - this-thread-will-answer-your-mixing-and-mastering-questions-t74832.html

I don't have things clashing in the same frequency range, just would have if I boosted these sub harmonics.

I think he's saying why add in a harmonic if you're just going to EQ it out or possibly have some sh**ty sidechaining going in

This.

You're spot on with the 100Hz/1st harmonic vs. kick thing wirez, IMO. That first harmonic area is IMO one of the biggest things people could be watching for a fat clean mix. I agree that good arrangement helps, but IMO that first harmonic is just shit in 99% of cases.

I'm all for fat bass with bundles of harmonics for fatness and audibility/warmth... just not those harmonics. Doesn't really add to either aspect beneficially IMO. Just makes the bass muddier, uses up room that could be used in the true sub area, and spoils cleanliness and audibility.

What he said. In your example just eq the fucker out, or use another way around it.

I think I've come to the conclusion that I won't be using exciters on my sub bass too often, and will only use them when I feel REALLY necessary!